Stalins Organ Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 Here's an interestign article by a Russian artillery officer about his experiences in the Finnish war: http://history.vif2.ru/atwar/lukinov/lukinov2.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWinterbottom Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 Very interesting. Thanks for the link. Mr.Winterbottom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 As I've read someplace, "Big powerful Soviet Union won the war; small, proud Finland took the honourable second place". This joke was attributed to finns, though. Another tidbit. According to Churchill, in 1941 Britain threatened to declare war on Finland if finns go further than 1918 border. Just wonder how big this factor was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tero Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 >Originally posted by Skipper: >As I've read someplace, "Big powerful Soviet >Union won the war; small, proud Finland took >the honourable second place". This joke was >attributed to finns, though. That happened twice. In 1940 and again in 1944. Mind you, in the Finnish language version the wording refers to an athletic event. The USSR came in first, the little brave Finland finished second. >Another tidbit. According to Churchill, in >1941 Britain threatened to declare war on >Finland if finns go further than 1918 >border. Just wonder how big this factor >was? Not really a tidbit. Britain DID deglare war on us in 1941. Look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabla Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 The text makes me wonder if BTS is planning to implement a "drunken" state for Russian infantry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K_Tiger Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 Or german "MDMA" Tank drivers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JunoReactor Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 A whole panzercorps fueled my mdma.. imagine that. At least they wont have to eat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 The fact that Britian declared war on Finland in 1941 and the U.S. severed diplomatic ties with the Finns did have an indirect impact on the war in the far North. Finland was very concious to of this and decided not to attempt cutting the Murmansk rail line in Russian territory, which was bringing vital lend lease equipment to Russia. Instead they said the Germans could try it alone if they wish. The Germans only succeeded in doing so intermittently through ski patrols equipped with demolitions. [ 05-04-2001: Message edited by: Keith ] [ 05-04-2001: Message edited by: Keith ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tero Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 >The fact that Britian declared war on >Finland in 1941 and the U.S. severed >diplomatic ties Sorry to tell you this but the US severed diplomatic relations only in mid-1944 to speed up our willingness to accept the peace terms offered to us then. From 1941 to mid 1944 the diplomatic relations between Finland and the US were normal. >with the Finns did have an indirect impact >on the war in the far North. Not indirect but direct impact. >Finland was very concious to of this and >decided not to attempt cutting the Murmansk >rail line in Russian territory, which was >bringing vital lend lease equipment to >Russia. Instead they said the Germans >could try it alone if they wish. The >Germans only succeeded in doing so >intermittently through ski patrols equipped >with demolitions. What is your source ? The patrols which cut the rail line were most definitely Finnish LRRP's. I have not heard of any German LRRP's doing it but that does not mean they did not do it. What you said applies to the rail line being cut permanently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 Keith wrote: Finland was very concious to of this and decided not to attempt cutting the Murmansk rail line in Russian territory, I'd like to give minor corrections. First, Murmansk rail line was, indeed, cut by Finns near Lake Onega. However, the Soviets had built a new East-West railroad connecting Belomorsk (Sorokka) and Archangel that got heavy use after the North-South railroad was cut. Finnish command staff decided not to attempt to cut the railroad North of Belomorsk after the first Finno-German attack was stopped at Kiestinki. This put general Siilasvuo between a rock and a hard place because officially he had to cooperate fully with Germans but unofficially he was told that Finns shouldn't advance anymore. However, the planning for an attack to the railroad continued throughout the war because it kept Germans happy. Finns always delibrately put too high demands for German participation to keep the attack from manifesting. (Once the number of required German forces was actually increased when the Germans surprisingly agreed to one version of the plan). Instead they said the Germans could try it alone if they wish. It was never said openly. German was in a position to starve Finland at will so it had to be done more subtly. The Germans only succeeded in doing so intermittently through ski patrols equipped with demolitions. Most raids to the Murmansk railroad were made by Finns. However, those attacks were usually done South of Belomorsk so they didn't affect the lend-lease transports that went to East and were aimed against supply transports of the Soviet units fighting in the area. Most raids were small-scale, where a one-two squad patrol mined the tracks and perhaps stayed to fire at the train for few minutes. The largest one happened in winter 1942 when Polish-born ratsumestari Majewski organized his two-batallion "Mammoth patrol" that held a long part of the railroad for a full day. The Archangel railroad, where most of the lend-lease stuff was transported, was left in peace by Finns. Only one long-range recon patrol mined it in few places, against orders. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 My source for my information is the book "Seven Days in January", which was written by a battalion XO of the 6th SS Mountain Division. The author has several pages discussing the long range patrols performed by German squads - sometimes with Finnish scouts. I am sure there were also many Finish only patrols. The author also makes it clear that the Finnish and German offensive in 1941 had sufficient momentum to cut the railway, but the Finns did not want to. The author says this is partially due to high Finnish casualties but also because the Finns did not want to piss of the Western Allies. The author describes how the Germans typically destroyed bridges as the best way to break the rail line. However the Russians had specific labor battalions tasked with keeping the rail line running and stockpilled timber for this purpose. [ 05-04-2001: Message edited by: Keith ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted May 4, 2001 Share Posted May 4, 2001 Im feeling slow today (must be the 93 degree heat here in New York) so I dont understand the "joke". Someone care to enlighten this poor sweating dolt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted May 5, 2001 Share Posted May 5, 2001 Keith wrote: The author has several pages discussing the long range patrols performed by German squads - sometimes with Finnish scouts. I am sure there were also many Finish only patrols. There was a rough division that Finns patrolled South of Belomorsk, and Germans to the North of it. In the Petsamo area there were both Finnish and German patrols. The author also makes it clear that the Finnish and German offensive in 1941 had sufficient momentum to cut the railway, but the Finns did not want to. That is far from clear. Really far. At Kiestinki, the first combined Finno-German attack was stopped by a Soviet counter attack in mid-August, and actually the point unit (Finnish JR53) got almost encircled, with its supply route going through roadless wilderness. In the beginning of September Finns retreated from "The Spike" and withdrew 15 km. The front then stayed in place until November, when a new attack was supposed to start. Now Mannerheim ordered Siilasvuo to stop attacking. Whether the attack could have reached the railroad at Louhi is far from certain. The Soviets had received reinforcements in the area, winter was coming fast, and Germans didn't have winter equipment. Additionally, German supply wagons were too heavy for offroad usage, so they would have had to advance along the heavily fortified railroad (a side branch of the Murmansk railroad). The author describes how the Germans typically destroyed bridges as the best way to break the rail line. Yup. However, rail bridges are pretty difficult to destroy and you have to have lots of explosives that are a beast to carry through a forest. Addendum: rail bridges were also heavily defended, at least compared with other rail sections, and got progressively better defence as war went on. Blowing a bridge would usually be not possible without combat, and combat 20-70 km behind enemy lines is usually not too bright idea. (Finnish patrolmen tried to avoid combat relying on mines and quick ambushes instead). - Tommi [ 05-05-2001: Message edited by: tss ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnN Posted May 5, 2001 Share Posted May 5, 2001 Interestingly the British were preparing an expeditionary force to send to Finland when the Finns capitulated at the end of the first conflict between the USSR and Finland. Have fun Finn PS - it's my name not my nationality! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishu Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 Fin / Rus war might be bit interesting also because there you could have seen american made planes fightning together. The Finnish curtis hawks and Brewster buffalos against many lend-lease planes sent to Russia. Weren't french also planning for sending mens to aid finns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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