Help: how do I use this dammed brit-boxes (tanks) ?

[Blenheim]

OK, guys, I have a problem. I've been playing this game for months.I take the germans, and I am rather good. I take the americans, and I get spanked (hate Shermans). But when I take the brits and tanks show up, I am lost. Really lost.

What are the roles of british tanks? How am I supposed to use a Cromwell, Churchill, or anything? Brief, please... I am in serious problems against a friend now....

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"We do not retreat... we advance to the back of the formation..." (brave new soldier)

[David Aitken]

Tell them to shoot at the bad guys.

Okay, well, Cromwells and Churchills are infantry tanks. Challengers and Sherman Fireflies are for killing enemy tanks. Daimler Scout Cars are also very nice for killing armour. A lot of people also seem to like the Wasps (flamethrower mounted on a Universal Carrier). Sextons blow stuff up. Comets are good all-rounders but only appeared at the end of the war.

David

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where's the BAR? – ColonelSquirrel

Where's the Bar? This is the most important and critical question I've ever seen on a thread – Rex_Bellator

[Blenheim]

Well.... probably tooo brief, really....

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"We do not retreat... we advance to the back of the formation..." (brave new soldier)

[Guy w/gun]

Get Fireflies and take in account that they have the armor of a normal Sherm but a way more powerful gun.

[Jagdcarcajou]

Hey,

Churchills are basically infantry close support tanks. They carry heavy load outs of HE rounds, and have pretty good armour. I have seen my Churchills stand toe-to-toe with Tigers at a decent range. The Cromwell is a light tank, great for dealing with light vehicles, and to a lesser extent, infantry.

The Challenger variants can sport great armour, and has a deadly tank-killing gun. The odd-ball heavy weapon version is great for infantry support (limited C rounds make it less effective against tanks). The Comet is a great tank buster, and is equally good for routing infantry. The Firefly-Sherman variants are excellent tank killers, but suffer from the glass armour of most Shermans. Handle with care. Non-17 Pounder Sherman variants are almost strictly anti-infantry/light vehicle tanks.

The Wolverine is a Tank Destroyer (lend lease), and the Sexton is the Priest with a new paint job (infantry killer). The Archer presents its own unique challenge to employ, but its a tank killer at heart.

The "carriers" are anti-infantry support vehicles, not really meant to lead a charge unless you are pretty sure the enemy heavy guns have been silenced.

Hope that helps.

Chris

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What the hell is a Jagdcarcajou?

CM Recon

[This message has been edited by Jagdcarcajou (edited 03-08-2001).]

[jgdpzr]

Well, there is no really brief way to put truly mastering the art of using allied armor. At least none that I can figure.

Bottom line is you must take advantage of the strengths of allied vehicles, but equally important is to look at the bigger picture.

What am I talking about? Don't try to frame it like: "How can I defeat the german heavies with these crappy tanks?" Instead, think along the lines of: "What can I exploit in terms of the allied weaponry to handle the german heavies?" (Really should be even broader than that, i.e. defeat all forces not just armor, but since I infer that you are having trouble with German armor beating the crap out of your tanks I'll restrict this to tanks) What advantage do the allies give you? Artillery and numbers (especially in tanks) are probably your biggest strengths. But there are some vehicular advantages as well, namely faster turrets and rates of fire and frequently better speed (especially in terms of tank destroyers and the Stuart- don't laugh at the Stewart it can give any German tank fits when deployed properly). Basically, grab 'em by the nose and kick 'em in the rear as Patton famously said. Engage the Germans with numbers, and maneuver to the flanks (preferably at the closest range possible) in concert with artillery support.

You have to focus on integrating all your weapons effectively. Not just one type. I can't get much briefer than that.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

The Shermans are much like the U.S. ones, but with the Fireflies also available with their superior 17-lb gun. These can defeat most German tanks from the front. In general, you use the same team tactics of shooter and wingman, infantry scouting, etc, as with the Americans. But the Fireflies mean the shooter need not be the half of a pair with a flank shot, for it to work.

Churchills are heavily armored infantry-support tanks. They are slower than the other types. The earlier models are not as heavily armored as the later ones. In general, these are undergunned vs. the better German tanks, and combined with low speed this can render them less effective than you might hope, from the armor alone. Because their low speed makes it hard for them to find flank shots, and they can have trouble killing German tanks without them They are at their best bunker-busting or killing PAK. The armor really helps there, and the gun is sufficient to take those enemies out.

There are Churchill versions that have a flamethrower in the place of the bow MG, and another with a short-ranged demo-charge thrower in place of the main gun (AVRE). Both are obviously anti-infantry strong-point busters.

The Cromwells are faster, lighter tanks. The early models have top speeds up to 40 mph. The later versions sacrifice some of this speed for better upper hull armor, a dubious trade-off in my book. They remain as fast as later U.S. Shermans (M4A3 type - 32 mph) and faster than the Shermans the British have (24-26 mph).

The slower Shermans have somewhat larger HE loads and most have a 3rd MG, but the speed of the Cromwells can more than make up for these. Incidentally, the variations among the Sherman model *numbers* (II or V) are of neglible importance, slight differences in armor and in speed. The important Sherman difference is "Firefly or not?"

Challengers are to Cromwells, what Fireflies are to Shermans - their upgunned 17-lb "shooter" tank. They are also a bit more armored in turret front (but hardly enough to matter against German tank guns), and have the better upper hull armor rather than 40 mph speed (they are 32 mph).

Wolverines are M-10 tank destroyers, just like the American type, with 76mm guns but thin armor. Later the Achilles becomes available, and is superior to the Wolverine in every respect - it uses the 17-lb gun on the same chassis. The late-war Comet is in most respects similar to a U.S. Sherman 76mm - a decent all-around tank but not standout in any particular role.

For the Cromwells and Churchills, there are 95mm versions of the tanks in addition to the usual 75mm. These are HE-throwing "CS" tanks, with 25 lb howitzers instead of 3-inch tank guns. They are poor anti-tank vehicles but pack 1.5 times the HE punch per round, plus around 5/4ths the HE load (just from not carrying AP). They are generally a poor choice if you expect any enemy armor. The StuH-105mm is the closest German analogy, with the important difference that these Brit CS tanks have only ~1.5 times the HE power of standard tank guns, instead of ~2x.

Key things to remember are -

1 - Fireflies, Challengers, and Achilles all mount the deadly 17-lber. The Wolverine and Comet have the intermediary "U.S.-style" 76mm.

2 - only the Churchills have armor sufficient to stop German tank-gun rounds at typical CM distances. The Mark VIs are borderline, the VIIs and VIIIs are well enough armored to bounce 75mm/L40 rounds regularly (e.g. Pz IV, StuG, Jadgpanzer, PAK40).

3 - The early mark Cromwells are quite fast.

4 - 95mm versions and the Sexton are all meant for HE work against infantry and guns. Their AT ability is quite limited, but they are good at knocking down villages.

Pair off some 17-lb "shooters" with standard 75mm "wingman", and use the "wingman" to go for flank shots. Have infantry or light armor scout for the tanks proper. When German armor is found, spring pairs of tanks on them at once, with the 17-lb shooter exposing itself slightly later than the "wingman". The 17-lber can kill from the front; the wingman can kill from the side if he lives. If you have an excess of 75mm tanks for this, then pair them with each other and double-flank individual targets from both sides.

I hope this helps.

[Guest Michael emrys]

To kind of summarize what Jason and the others have said, why not do what the Brits themselves did? Put together a troop or two of Shermans at the ratio of three normal Sherms to one Firefly. That gives you plenty of 75mm bang to take care of personnel targets and the very lovely 17pdr. on the Firefly as your ace in the hole if you run into German armor.

Michael

[Guy w/gun]

Think of it this way...German Tanks are Boulders balanced on tooth picks. In the beggining, the allied player will only see the boulder and therefore they are defeated before they start. But underneath is the flimsy tooth pick, the one the Germans didn't want you to see. Learn to find and break this tooth pick and German armor becomes considerably less powerful.

Pretty poetic eh?

In other words, the German heavies are big and strong, but have many flaws. Learn to exploit the flaws and you will succeed.

[von Lucke]

Three other points you might consider:

1. Most British built tanks (Centaur, Cromwell, Challenger, Churchill) all have a 0 degree slope to most of their frontal and turret armor. Renders that 152mm of Churchill a bit less effective than you think, so don't get overly fiesty as even a panzershreck can easily punch a hole in it.

2. The Sextons' 25lbr comes with a small amount of AP ammo (somewhere around 5 - 15) --- more than you'll get with a typical SP guns load of "c" rounds. While not very effective frontally, it can do the job from the side. Plus which, the Sexton usually packs 80 - 100 rounds of HE, which is more than enough to finish off most 30 turn games.

3. 17lber armed tanks (Firefly and Challenger) don't have any HE ammo until September 44. This could be a bit of a sticky wicket if you don't have any "Infantry" tanks available in yr game.

(And on a personal note, I

consider "Cromwell" just the British word for "Sherman").

[This message has been edited by von Lucke (edited 03-09-2001).]

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by von Lucke:

And on a personal note, I

consider "Cromwell" just the British word for "Sherman".

Actually, when 7th Armoured switched from Shermans to Cromwells prior to the invasion they hated it and wanted their diesel Shermans back

Couple minor corrections: the 95mm howitzer in the CS Cromwells and Churchills is not a 25pdr (that is 88mm calibre). They came at a TO&E strength of two per squadron of 16 in the Churchill units, so they were reasonably rare.

The Cromwell is (contrary to David) not an infantry tank, but was used as armoured Recce vehicle in the UK and Polish armoured divisions. Since it was to all intents and purposes the equal of the Sherman in terms of characteristics (brittle and undergunned ) this meant that UK armoured divisions were very tank-strong (about 250/division) compared to their German counterparts (about 120+ TO&E, 160 if you count Stugs, but always less in reality). This was a serious problem, since it did not encourage the development of balanced task forces.

The Sexton was rarely used as a Stug equivalent. It constituted the SP artillery of the Commonwealth divisions, and was not usually used in any role but indirect arty fire. The Commonwealth had Priests with US 105mm guns early in Normandy, but these were felt to be inferior to the 25pdr in the Sexton. These Priests were turned into Kangaroos (Confused now? Good!) prior to TOTALIZE.

Churchills were slow and undergunned but reasonably armoured although CMBO overstates their effectiveness. IRL a lot of the Churchills in Normandy were the lesser armoured Mk III variety with 6pdr guns (not in the game). For an impression of what happened to Churchills caught between a rock and a hard place, read about operation JUPITER and the battle for Maltot 9/10 July 1944.

Crocodiles were only present in 79th Armoured, and in 31st TB (and maybe some Canadian outfit). They would be employed in platoons and were highly effective at demoralising defenders of strongpoints.

Sherman Fireflies (and later Challengers) with the 17pdr are a bad surprise to any German tanker, even in a King Tiger. The 17pdr was probably the best tank gun the Allies fielded in the war, if only in terms of it being actually available. At least one UK unit, 8th Armoured Brigade decided early on when they were issued the Firefly, not to do the 3 75mm 1 Firefly troop organisation, but had one Firefly troop per squadron. They had been in Africa, and were probably used to working as a squadron. I have no idea whether they changed that later, but would be interested to hear if somebody knows.

All off the top of my head - hopefully not too many mistakes in here.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Blenheim]

Thank you, guys !!! that's wisdom !!!!

(BTW, I won !!! I got lucky here. A rocket atack that was suppposed to crush my atack destroyed two german pillboxes and a panther. I had destroyed a careless KT before, so it got easy...)

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"We do not retreat... we advance to the back of the formation..." (brave new soldier)

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Germanboy:

The Sexton was rarely used as a Stug equivalent. It constituted the SP artillery of the Commonwealth divisions, and was not usually used in any role but indirect arty fire. The Commonwealth had Priests with US 105mm guns early in Normandy, but these were felt to be inferior to the 25pdr in the Sexton. These Priests were turned into Kangaroos (Confused now? Good!) prior to TOTALIZE.

To be clearer - the StuG was an Assault Gun, the Sexton was a Self Propelled Gun.

Were they ever employed in the front lines? I'd be interested in hearing of an instance in which it occurred - certainly a rarity for them to fire over open sights - good, accurate summary of their role, Germanboy.

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Were they ever employed in the front lines? I'd be interested in hearing of an instance in which it occurred - certainly a rarity for them to fire over open sights - good, accurate summary of their role, Germanboy.

Thanks Michael - I have never come across an account of them working in DF mode. I would not say never, because one day pigs may fly, but I would be very interested in such accounts too.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Firefly]

I recently played an ASL converted scenario, which was historically based, set after the Villiers-Bocage debacle, which simulated a British infantry defence where the infantry were supported by a battery of 4 Sextons.

Th scenario was the The Island, the date was 14th June, the original ASL scenario was Deluxe ASL Scenario A4.

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Firefly:

I recently played an ASL converted scenario, which was historically based, set after the Villiers-Bocage debacle, which simulated a British infantry defence where the infantry were supported by a battery of 4 Sextons.

Th scenario was the The Island, the date was 14th June, the original ASL scenario was Deluxe ASL Scenario A4.

Well, the history of 7th AD that I read said those were actually towed 25pdrs firing over open sights. I would quite like to see real sources, not ASL.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Germanboy:

Well, the history of 7th AD that I read said those were actually towed 25pdrs firing over open sights. I would quite like to see real sources, not ASL.

Sorry it was as close as I could get. I wonder why the original scenario designer chose to switch the 25 pdrs for Sextons, it certainly wasn't play balance, at least in CM, my opponent ended up surrendering before the game was half over.