Unit purchase - historical accuracy

[Apache]

I am still waiting for game to arrive but want to 'gen' up as much as I can.

Can anyone tell me where I might find lists detailing axis/ally formation make up's. I know CMBO has some default set ups and also fro a QB or a bit of fun it may not matter. What I don't want to do though is assign units to my purchase that they wouldn't get in reality (e.g. putting Pumas with Waffen SS when they would have only had 'X' or giving them Tigers and Panthers when they would only get Panthers and IVs).

In the late stages, when axis forces were in retreat, I know commanders probable put together what they could. Any help appreciated.

[Michael Dorosh]

I just put up a page on Canadian infantry battalions and hope to follow it with armoured regiments and motor battalions.

I haven't gone beyond the rifle company in terms of a "game" battalion, but the real life components of a battalion are there.

What you will see from this page is that BTS seems to have done a lot of research into what a platoon, company or battalion really was - I can't speak for the other cases, but they came almost dead on the money as far as Canadian battalions.

I will some info on armoured units up in the next while as well - for now I can generally say that one squadron of armour was usually assigned to a battalion of infantry for support - in game terms, 13 or 15 Shermans, with about a third of them being Fireflies. The squadron was broken down into a HQ and three troops, with four tanks per troop (either one or two of these were fireflies, depending on the time frame). Likewise the divisional machine gun battalion often parcelled out its mortar platoons and MG companies one per brigade, artillery Field Regiments were assigned one per brigade, etc. I hope to make all this info available on the site soon in an easy to read graphical format.

Any feedback is welcome.

http://wargames.freehosting.net/battalion.htm

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http://wargames.freehosting.net/cmbits.htm

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 02-03-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 02-03-2001).]

[Apache]

Michael - excellent. Have had a skim read and will read in depth tomorrow. I did have a small book (from a wargame shop) which gave a lot of detail but I'm blowed if I can find it.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

The main infantry formations, CM has already done the work for you basically. Some support formations, it can help to know more about how the various sides did thing. For instance -

Towed guns were rarely used individually, although a single gun of one type might remain from a pair once one was taken out. Normally, guns of the same type appeared in sections (2 guns) or batteries (4 guns). 3 batteries or 12 guns made a battalion, and is the largest unit size you'd probably see on a CM scale battlefield, for towed gun types. This applies to Allied anti-tank guns 57mm and 76mm, 40mm Bofors AA, German 20mm AA, 88mm FLAK, 50mm, 75mm, and 88mm PAK, as well as the various howitzer types, but with a few quibbles.

Quibbles - German 150mm infantry guns would be found in pairs only, not more. Their 75mm howizters would be found in pairs (when parcelled out to companies), or 6 gun batteries (for a battalion). The light mortar battery sizes were 6 mortars per battery for all nations - this means 3" and 81mm mortars (each infantry battalion had one such battery). They were also found in pairs at the company level. German light AA battalions combined 12 20mm AA with either 2 20mm quad -or- 4 37mm AA. Sometimes these heavier AA guns were mounted on half-tracks, even in the infantry formations. Only Panzer and SS Panzer formations had the 20mm quad and 37mm armored, tank-chassis AA guns (Whirblewind and Ostwind), and these were rare enough that finding them alone or in pairs would be common (to defend one part of a long road column from air attack e.g). In German Panzer and SS formations, 75mm infantry guns would not be found; the same weapons would be mounted on halftracks instead (the SPW 250/8 e.g.).

German tank platoons in late war were 4 tanks each, except in the SS formations which kept the 5 tanks per platoon establishment for medium tanks. Individual platoons would not mix types. Tigers were always in 4-tanks platoons (all these are before battle losses and breakdowns, obviously). German Panzer divisions had a balanced tank force of 1/2 Panther and 1/2 Pz IV, 40 of each in a standard Panzer division, which is 9 4-tank platoons, 3 single-tank company command tanks (for 3 platoons), and 1 battalion command tank.

In the field, the types were often mixed at the company level, sometimes at the platoon level. Meaning, you would see 4 Panthers and 8 Pz IVs occasionally. You would see 13 Panthers and 13 Pz IVs quite often, if the engagement were of that size. You would not see 2 Panthers and 3 Pz IVs unless these were remnants of 2 platoons.

German infantry formations, not Panzer or SS, rarely saw tanks proper at all and only from outside units. Instead they had assault guns and tank-destroyers, especially StuGs and Hetzers. StuGs were organized into platoons of 3, plus 1 for a company command, so that 10 made up a company. You would rarely see more than that one the CM scale. TDs like the Jadgpanter could be organized either like the StuGs or like the tanks.

The JgdPz IV series was common and can appear in all formation types; they replaced the towed PAK guns in divisional AT battalions. You usually would not see towed PAKs and Jadgpanzers proper in the same place. The heavier versions, Jadgpanther and Jadgtiger, are quite rare and usually found in the Panzer and SS formations.

U.S. tanks were organized 5 per platoon, usually all Shermans, some light tank platoons all Stuarts. The types of the Shermans were mixed. In Normandy fighting, almost all should be straight 75mm Shermans with few of the add ons. Later in the war, 1 or 2 76mm Shermans per platoon can be expected. Platoons of uniform 76mm Shermans would be very rare. Sherman Jumbos are also very rare, but the uparmored + types are more common - 75mm+ varities often lead.

A U.S. tank company had 3 platoons of Shermans, and one platoon of Stuarts - but the Stuarts were sometimes detached to work with the recon/armored cavalry units.

U.S. tank destroyers were organized into platoons of 4 vehicles all of the same type, and a company having either all the same type, or 1 platoon of an improved type. In addition, 3 of these platoons were aided by a platoon of 4 M-8 armored cars or 75mm howitzer motor gun carrigages (in place of Stuarts, effectively). The 90mm Jackson variety was somewhat rare, but one platoon of those in a company would be reasonable. The straight M-10 (slow 76mm version) was the most common type during 1944. The M-18 Hellcats became more common as the war progressed, gradually replacing M-10s.

U.S. armored cavalry would have 1 platoon of 4 M-8s and 1 group of 3-4 motor gun carriages with 75mm howitzer, to 3 sections of 5 M-20s, Jeep MGs, or halftracks carrying scout infantry. A platoon of Stuarts is another likely attachment with them.

So Stuarts with Shermans is reasonable; M-8s with tank destroyers is reasonable; M-8s and/or Stuarts with Jeeps, M-20 utility cars, and halftracks is reasonable. A force of pure M-8s, or M-8s and Sherman 76s, is not reasonable.

U.S. armored infantry differed from standard infantry. The 60mm mortars were not always there (were sometimes, not always), and a company often had 2x81mm mortar carrier halftracks attached instead. When they have the 81mm attached, they should not have 81mm FO, though. The MGs were often mounted on the halftracks instead of carried in teams for dismount. Up to 6 of the HTs in a company could be the 2 MG versions, but if so they would not have dismount MGs. They could have extra bazookas though. An armored infantry company generally had support from 105mm FO. They might also have a section or battery (2 or 4) of Priests, the SP 105mm howitzer, if they were going up against fortifications.

A company of U.S. armored infantry company would have 20 halftracks and a handful of jeeps and trucks. They might also have a platoon of engineers attached, in trucks. There was a tank company for each of the armored infantry companies in the armored divisions, but mixed of 1 platoon of tanks and 1 company of armored infantry would also be found, or mixed companies of 2 tank platoons and 2 armored infantry platoons (1/2 a company, basically).

So, the basic difference you'd see between armor and infantry formations for the U.S., is that in the armor you'd have basically 1 to 1 tank and infantry platoons, with all of the latter in halftracks, sometimes including 81mm carrier HTs, and with 105mm artillery support. While the infantry would have more like 1 tank platoon per infantry company (1 to 3-4 platoons), with the infantry in trucks or (in the battle zone) on foot, and supported by 81mm mortars (and their own 60mm) - sometimes 105mm too.

For the Brits, the other fellow already provided useful info. The normal tank platoon was 1 Firefly plus 3 Sherman 75. Other units had 4 cromwell. Those are the most common types. The heavily armored Churchills would be found supporting infantry, especially in attacks on fortifications, rather than in armored formations. Supporting infantry, you'd see the same 1 tank platoon per company balance as in the U.S. infantry case. As armor, you'd see company-sized armor units with little infantry backing, or with the infantry in a second wave behind them.

For British support vehicles, the carriers and carrier MGs would be extremely common, and the basic support vehicle. The carrier MGs could be as common as 1 per platoon of infantry, but not more so. The straight carriers would not be numerous enough to actually carry all the men as teams, but could carry the mortars, HQs, and such.

The Cromwell tanks often worked closely with the British armored cars and scout cars. The armor formations generally (standard Sherman mixes I mean) worked with the gun-armed Humbler armored cars. Same sorts of scouting ratios - a platoon ahead of a tank company e.g.

The German recon forces used halftracks, including gun-armed halftracks, more than the armored cars proper. Of the armored cars, by far the most common types were the 20mm gun versions. The 50mm Puma and 75mm howizter versions were quite rare. These vehicles could be used in groups of up to 7. The Lynx light tanks were also rare, and used standard tank platoon sizes. A German late-war recon force should have an ad-hoc look, like 3 20mm armored cars, 1 75mm howitzer half-track, and 4-5 halftracks carrying a platoon of motorized infantry, plus perhaps one artillery FO, MG or Shreck teams.

Just a few items to help get a sense. Obviously, seeking historical accuracy in purchases is your affair.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

For the British

The normal tank platoon was 1 Firefly plus 3 Sherman 75. Other units had 4 cromwell. Those are the most common types. The heavily armored Churchills would be found supporting infantry, especially in attacks on fortifications, rather than in armored formations.

Good stuff as usual Jason, just one clarification, The 4 Cromwell troop was normally seen in armoured recon regiments, in an armoured regiment, such as those with 7th Armoured Div. 3 Cromwells plus a Firefly was the normal troop make-up. Churchills operated in troops of 3 and where they were used Wolverines in troops of 4.

[This message has been edited by Firefly (edited 02-03-2001).]

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Firefly:

Good stuff as usual Jason, just one clarification, The 4 Cromwell troop was normally seen in armoured recon regiments, in an armoured regiment, such as those with 7th Armoured Div. 3 Cromwells plus a Firefly was the normal troop make-up. Churchills operated in troops of 3 and where they were used Wolverines in troops of 4.

From August/September 1944 you would get a Challenger/troop in the Recon Rgts.

8th AB decided to use the Fireflies they had concentrated and put them in one troop/squadron, instead of parcelling them out, AFAIK.

Oh, and never mix Comets with other tanks.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 02-03-2001).]

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

The German recon forces used halftracks, including gun-armed halftracks, more than the armored cars proper. Of the armored cars, by far the most common types were the 20mm gun versions. The 50mm Puma and 75mm howizter versions were quite rare. These vehicles could be used in groups of up to 7. The Lynx light tanks were also rare, and used standard tank platoon sizes. A German late-war recon force should have an ad-hoc look, like 3 20mm armored cars, 1 75mm howitzer half-track, and 4-5 halftracks carrying a platoon of motorized infantry, plus perhaps one artillery FO, MG or Shreck teams.

German recce battalions were interesting formations. Ideally, they might consist of a company of armored cars, a company or two of armored infantry, a platoon of armored engineers, a section of 81mm mortars, even a platoon of StuGs. During the early war, half or more of the infantry would be on motorcycles. They were heavily armed and very aggressive.

Michael

[Forever Babra]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Any feedback is welcome.

Four troops per tank, eh?

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...and Kingmaker taught me that if you go to any town in Britain, sooner or later the plague will get you. - Offwhite

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Forever Babra:

Four troops per tank, eh?

Doh....well, there's an easy fix for that....

[Apache]

Jason

Thanks for the info provided - very helpful. Just to clarify one or two points:

1) AFAIK CMBO represents platoons etc. on a scale of about 1:3 or 4. On that basis, to avoid over-tanking (they do have some considerable firepower I notice), would tanks be represented on the same scale? If wishing to replicate a company of shermans therefore would you use 5 (1 per platoon plus a CHQ)? Equally for a German Panzer Division would you use 10 or 40 (not sure if game/points would allow this - only have demo at moment)?

2) Wolverines - I understand these are TDs, I was not aware Brits had them too and thought they were just US with the Brits using Firefly's. Did they have another role?

3) Were Challengers only used in recon units?

4) If you have the time, what would best represent a late period SS Panzer Division/Coy in CMBO (with infantry support)?

5) Just an aside - in full game, do walls break down when tanks etc go through them or are they left in tact? My concern is, on the demo tanks roll over them which I presume would make it hard for a jeep or light scout car to go through the gap a real tank would make

[Michael Dorosh]

Apache - tanks aren't purchased as units in the game. While infantry has to be purchased in platoons, companies or battalions, armor is purchased on a tank for tank basis, so your well-founded fears of "over-tanking" shouldn't be too much of a concern for you.

There is also the possibility in Quick Battles of playing with infantry-only forces, if that is to your liking.

Edit - as you may be aware already, tank units also don't seem to suffer from command restrictions; they are in the game to support the infantry. You can play armour-only battles, but it doesn't appear the game is modelled to specifiacally deal with any command issues, etc., regarding armour. You can purchase an entire company of tanks, but you do so individually, and also command them individually. You also need to have your own references; CMBO doesn't list the establishment of wartime tank units.

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 02-08-2001).]

[Apache]

Michael, thanks for that, the question probably wasn't worded brilliantly (or I'm perhaps missing the point)but, as they are purchased on tank for tank basis, would one tank represent a platoon or one tank? I would hate to 'buy' five shermans (one platoon?) and find that in terms of firepower v. infantry I was actually putting up the equivalent of a company.

[Michael Dorosh]

One tank in the game = one tank in real life.