Artillery spacing question.

[tss]

Roborat wrote:

No, they are not going to waste expensive MT/VT or any other fuses on setting up a TRP, they would use good old contact fused HE, it's the cheapest and most common fuse.

Why not? Mechanical time fuzes were not particularly scarce.

Besides, with an airburst, how would the foo see well enough to adjust.

They are firing low airbursts. The Finnish artillery firing regulations of 1936 contain many pages of instructions how to adjust MT fire, and the procedure is not very different from that with impact fuzes.

And yes, if you wander into an area and see a few fresh craters, without an obvious target, you might want to shift over a bit, really quickly.

And of course, you don't have to shell the actual target point but you can calibrate the guns to a nearby target several hundreds of meters away and then quickly shift fire to the actual target.

- Tommi

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by tss:

I have been hit by a severe case of Real World lately, so I hadn't noticed this thread earlier.

Roborat wrote:

Real life tip for the infantry types: the safest place to be, if your caught out in the open in an arty barrage, is in an impact crater from the barrage, as the guns will NEVER put another round into the same hole

One Finnish veteran of the Winter War wrote in his memoirs [i can't remember exactly who, but he fought at Summa] that during the Soviet preparatory barrage before the February major offensive one of his pals followed that advice and jumped into a fresh shellhole. However, about 30 seconds later a new shell (152 mm) landed in the same hole, and only thing that they could later found was a boot.

Right. Statistically, a shell is about as likely to fall where a previous shell has fallen as any other location in the beaten zone.

Of course, if you are caught in an artillery barrage, any kind of a hole in the ground is a good place to be.

Michael

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

To PAK 40 -

I was in the USAR (reserve) artillery. I'm also just an old gamer though - LOL. (I playtested Terrible Swift Sword at an origins convention in the 1970s as a young man, if that gives you an idea. I am sure there are lots of old gamers here). And I study political science and history.

I do have some corrections on my CEP figures though. I'm not sure if I believe this source on this subject, but he seems to have a wealth of info in other respects.

http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust10.htm

He gives the standard error for German 50mm mortars as 35 meters, and for the 81mm mortar he gives 65 meters. Those seem somewhat high to me (they might be meant for targets at maximum range). He doesn't have one for 120mm mortars, but those are fired from off map in CM anyway. But 25 meters for the typical light in CM (like the U.S. 60mm mortar and the British 2"), and more like 50 meters for the 81mm mortar, seems believeable.

Incidentally, the same source has a number of interesting facts on how common various German infantry weapons were in the whole war, just from their production-run figures. Some of the likely deviations from TOEs can be read out of the figures.

For example, the TOE of late war German infantry, had 2 81mm mortars per company or 6 per battalion, with a battalion of 12 120mm mortars at the regimental level. That suggests a ratio of the two types of 3:2. But the production figures have a ratio between the two types of 9 to 1, in favor of the lighter 81mm, and the ammo runs favor the 81mm by 14 to 1.

So one can be pretty sure the 120mm mortars were not always present at TOE. If only the tube ratio was off, you might think it was just that the 81mms, with their shorter range, were lost more often, while the 120mm versions survived. But with the 81mm mortar ammo far more common, that explanation fails. You make the ammo for the guns you still have, not for the ones you lost.

Another interesting state is the number of mortar rounds. It is a huge 74 million for the 81mm. There is an implicit comment on their accuracy in that figure, either that or there was a lot of blind fire at empty locations going on, or both. Far more 81mm mortar rounds were fired at Allied infantrymen, than there were Allied infantrymen to shoot them at, and most of the latter lived. Ergo, most of the rounds missed.

There were around 80,000 81mm mortars made, plus captured Russian 82mm versions. That means 81mm mortars were twice as common as all German AFVs put together (~45,000). Down until 1943, the Germans still used their light 50mm mortar (twin of the British 2" one, essentially), but the 81s were 3 times as common overall (maybe 4 times with the captured Russian stuff thrown in).

German light/medium mortars generally have 900 rounds made for each tube, while the heavier 120mms had ~600 made for each tube. Obviously, some would be destroyed before they fired that many, and others would shoot more, but it gives a sense of their service life and the frequency with which they could fire them off. In CM terms, that means roughly 35-50 "FOs" or firing modules from each mortar battery, over its entire service life. Not "every half hour", certainly. Probably more like "once a week" for the average unit, and perhaps once a day in action hot enough for CM coverage, at best. If the 120mm's lasted longer, they didn't fire more mission because of it, in CM "FO" terms - 50 FOs of 50 rounds each for 4 mortars, is their war-long or service-life average ammo limit.

Other items of interest -

the small arms mix obviously moved from mostly rifle plus some MGs to more automatic-weapon heavy at the end of the war. But rifles are the rule all the way through, they have to be. Here are the total war figures, approximate and adding in similar types -

rifles - 12 million

MGs - 1 million

MP40s - 900,000

MP44s - 425,000

Sniper mods for rifles - 175,000

So the whole-war average equipment for a company would be something like - 2 sniper rifles, 4 MP44s, 9 MP40s, 10 MGs, and 120 other Rifles. So you are looking at squads with 1 MG, 1 MP (NCO), the rest Rifles, and with the weapons company HMGs included only 2/3rds of the squads even have 1 MG, though there is an MP44 to fill in in the other ones. (Not that that is how the MP44s were used, mind). In the early years, they probably had 1 LMG per platoon, not per squad.

Still, 1.3 million SMGs and 1 million MGs is a lot of automatic weapons. They were not uncommon, in late war in particular. Sniper rifles were, but 1-3 in a company is perfectly believable.

It is interesting to classify items by how common they were, to give a sense of what the Allies faced.

Total mortar rounds, all types - around 100 million (! these woods are not friendly)

Rifles 12 million, and rifle grenades 24 million (! - sure it is a round, and for years of the war. But 24 million is a lot of rifle grenades).

AT mines - 19 million. (Gingerly down the road...)

7.4 million fausts + 1.9 million schreck rounds + .75 million infantry AT mines, mag or sticky/thrown varities - 10 million infantry AT weapons, on top of and more effective than the rifle grenades, and almost all for the late-war period. Hundred of the things per Allied tank. Do not get too close to these fellas.

As mentioned, 1.33 million SMG and 1 million MGs. Not as common as rifles, but a lot of automatic weapons certainly. That is about 4 MGs and 5 SMGs for each Allied, and more like 20 MGs and 30 SMGs for every German, tank or TD.

We think of items like flamethrowers as much more rare, but in fact the Germans made and issued 1.5 flamethrowers for every tank they had (65,000 all told). The number is on the order of 1 per company compared to the other weapons, but they were used by the pioneers of course, not distributed to everyone. It is really the German tanks and TDs that are rare.

Just some trivia gleaned from the site with the URL above...

[Pak40]

"For example, the TOE of late war German infantry, had 2 81mm mortars per company or 6 per battalion, with a battalion of 12 120mm mortars at the regimental level. That suggests a ratio of the two types of 3:2. But the production figures have a ratio between the two types of 9 to 1, in favor of the lighter 81mm, and the ammo runs favor the 81mm by 14 to 1."

Be aware that mortars were also used in other units, not just the infantry battalions. That will account for some of the high number of 81mm. Also, I'd be willing to speculate that 81mm mortars needed to be replaced more often because they were used closer to the front line which lead to more of them being captured or damaged.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Replaced more often does not jibe with 14 times the ammo. If the tubes were being lost regularly, each one would fire fewer rounds before a new one was needed. But the 81s are firing half again as many rounds per tube over their service life, as the 120s.

They just didn't always have the 120s at the regimental level. That is the obvious conclusion. When they didn't have them, they may have used 81s, or they may have used Nebelwerfers, or they may have gone without. But they did not have 2 120mm mortars for every 3 81mm mortars, or anything remotely close to it, in the regular infantry divisions. That number of those guns simply did not exist, nor did the ammo for them exist.

You do not make 14 times the rounds for a weapon you are going to deploy only twice as many of. And they made 9 times as many of the 81s, not twice as many. Can you find 216 81mm mortars in a line infanry division? No. Then they didn't have TOE of the 120s.

I'll bet what they did, is around the time of the changeover to the 2 regiment model, they made the 120mm mortar battalions a substitute for artillery battalions, and the forces then got one or the other. If the division was to have 3, or 4, artillery battalions, then they'd have no 120mm mortars and 4, or 1 battalion of 120mm mortars and 3, or 1 battalion of 120mm mortars per regiment - as the TOE has it - and then only 2 of regular tube artillery in the artillery regiment. Or some such substitution. Assigning support to regiments, effectively, but arty -or- heavy mortar.

Notice, when fighting the division with regiments side by side, each in 2 up, 1 back formation (as reserves), that gives one battalion-sized unit of supporting "medium" artillery, to each front-line infantry battalion. That kind of "tasking" makes sense to me. Its the kind of thing they'd do, on a "kampgruppe" basis, that would turn into an organic attachment in all but name.

So the "defacto" TOE would really be ~48 medium field pieces per division, and whether they were 105mm howitzer or 120mm mortar would vary from unit to unit. Then they'd fire as battalions in support of front line battalions, which would also have their organic 81mms and 75mm infantry guns.

A front line battalion could have -

infantry battalion

light FLAK battery

3 TDs and/or 2-4 PAK

81mm mortar support (organic)

75mm infantry gun support (organic)

105mm howitzer -*or*- 120mm mortar support

And in reserve there would be a company+ behind each battalion position, which might have a sIG assault gun (the regimental 150mm infantry howitzers, mounted), and with a TD company to spearhead a counterattack somewhere when needed.

Makes sense of it to me. Comments?

[Guest tero]

Check out the German TOE in Normandy at:

http://home.swipnet.se/normandy/gerob/gerob.html

You will find that what the divisions actually had was sometimes VERY different to what they were supposed to have. I personally was surprised to see the absence of the company level direct support 75mm IG's.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

A fantastic site, thanks for the link. You are right, it is much more ad hoc and scrambled than I could have possibly imagined - LOL. Half the artillery is Russian and all kinds of ersatz substitutions are being made in organization charts that aren't sitting still in the first place.

Here are some examples of the heavy weapons of various divisions. First I should explain one of the figures. They have tracked the number of MGs per battalion. That varies from 40 per battalions up to 63 per battalion, with middle to lower figures more common. Engineers are lower, 11 per company (2 HMG and 9 squad level LMG).

5 different infantry divisions I examined didn't have a single 120mm mortar between them. They also had a sum total of 4 150mm SiG combined. But they had 45, 76, 72, 54, and 67 81mm mortars respectively. Div. arty, the long range tube stuff, was a hodge-podge, like this -

77th division - 16x105mm Not much, but simple

85th division - 12x105mm + 4x150mm, +12x150mm later in exchange for 12x88mm PAK

And have we got a deal for you!

91st division - started with 105mm mountain guns that took a different type of 105mm round. No resupply after the initial load. The guns were sent to the rear and replaced with whatever came to hand. 12x122mm (Russian), 7x125mm (unknown, French?), 9x155mm (has to be French; Germans used 150mm not 155mm).

When you can find ammo for French 125mm (if that is even what they were) more easily than German 105mm, that's confusion. But in a perverse way it makes sense - the rear echelon thought all German 105mm worked in all German 105mm howitzers and sent the wrong stuff. Tell them you are using captured French stuff and they don't try sending you the stuff that doesn't work.

243 division - 24x76mm Russian (plus they used 18 more of those in place of regimental infantry guns), 16x122mm Russian (4 Gun, 12 howitzer)

16 LW Field (taken over by army) - 16x76mm (Russian), 12x122mm (Russian)

And here are the other heavy weapons for the same five -

77 - 40 MG/Batt, 8x75mm IG, 6x50mm PAK, 12x75mm PAK, 12x88mm PAK, 6xflamethrower

85 - 63 MG/Batt, 4x150mm SiG, 12x75mm IG, 18x75mm PAK, 12x88mm PAK until traded for 12x150mm howitzer (and a major to be named later), 12xflamethrower, and 72xSchrecks (4 / inf company, or 1/platoon including the weapons platoons). Was supposed to get 12x37mm FLAK during the Normandy fighting but nobody knows if they actually got them.

91 - (MG ratio not listed) 10x75mm PAK, 21xStuG III, 8x88mm PAK, 2x88mm FLAK, 2x37mm FLAK, 7x20mm FLAK

243 - 44 MG/ Batt, as mentioned 18x76mm Russian howitzer used as infantry guns, 9 75mm PAK, 14 Marder, 10 StuG, 12x20mm FLAK

16 LW Field - 56 MG/Batt, 12x75mm PAK, 15x50mm PAK, 21x20mm FLAK (figures), 2xStuG, later 8xStuG more to complete the company, 54xSchreck (1/platoon with their organization), 6xflamethrower

Wow. Talk about "ersatz"...

[This message has been edited by jasoncawley@ameritech.net (edited 02-08-2001).]

[Hans]

Accuracy: to answer an earlier question

Assuming away tube wear and other ballistic variables AND assuming you are firing at the most accurate range/charge. For US artillery

8" was considered the most accurate (bigger shells always look more accurate!)

155

105

75

175 (probably because they were using firing from a greater distance on usually on relayed (old) data

Or so the old Field Artillery says

[Guest Germanboy]

Regarding the rifle/SMG production figures, I think it is impossible to use these to construct any kind of average. Far and away from the front, in rear-area security etc. you would probably find exclusively rifle equipped units (Norway/Denmark/Balkans maybe). At the sharp end, where the combat happened, i.e. Western and Eastern fronts, and Italy, particularly in 1944-5, that is where you would find the automatic weapons at a much higher ration than the production figures would suggest. If I read the correctly, the production stats were for the whole war - it would be a lot more interesting to see them broken down by year, since CMBO only simulates 1944-5.

------------------

Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Skipper]

Why not simply look into organisational charts. Newly formed frontline infantry squads generally had what was prescribed (unless they were hastily formed, like narodnoe opolchenie or volksturm). After some combat (and losses) percentage of SMGs increased, because this weapon improved the chances of personal survival (although not necessarily combat effectiveness of the bearer - not in each and every situation, at least).

[Roborat]

Roborat

I am not pretending to know how it works in RL, and your tip has value, as it is probably safer to be in a crater than in the open, but I don't think that your remark holds true in theory. The system has no memory, so assuming the crater is not the effect of a spotting round (in which case the gun gets recalibrated), the chances of a shell falling anywhere in the designated area should be the same.

It's like saying that a person who's won the lottery won't win it again. Well, it's probably true, but in theory completely wrong.

Regards

I agree, I was referring to IRL, for the game, since it doesn't model craters (as far as I can tell), you can't hide in them anyway. But that is SOP, in training, we were told that, if caught in the open in a barrage, if there is no cover, find the nearest impact crater to hide in. Statistically, you should not get hit again. But again, I mentioned that it is not as good in heavy barrages with lots of guns, i.e. typical Warsaw pact take out the grid square method. From what I have seen from visiting impact areas, I don't remember seeing too many impact craters overlapping each other.

[This message has been edited by Roborat (edited 02-08-2001).]

[Roborat]

Originally posted by tss:

Roborat wrote:

No, they are not going to waste expensive MT/VT or any other fuses on setting up a TRP, they would use good old contact fused HE, it's the cheapest and most common fuse.

Why not? Mechanical time fuzes were not particularly scarce.

Besides, with an airburst, how would the foo see well enough to adjust.

They are firing low airbursts. The Finnish artillery firing regulations of 1936 contain many pages of instructions how to adjust MT fire, and the procedure is not very different from that with impact fuzes.

And yes, if you wander into an area and see a few fresh craters, without an obvious target, you might want to shift over a bit, really quickly.

And of course, you don't have to shell the actual target point but you can calibrate the guns to a nearby target several hundreds of meters away and then quickly shift fire to the actual target.

- Tommi

Interesting point, I was going by standard Canadian methods, and since we use the same towed 105s as in WWII, and from what I have been able to learn, things haven't changed much from then. the SOP is to adjust with HE for location, then one or two VT ot time to set burst height. And in setting up "TRPs", they don't generally offset too far away. I will have to do some more digging on these matters, there are a few old timers I can check with.