Calling all modders (APB - All Pixel Bulletin)

[Scipio]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Forbidden is a strong word, as no one has the authority to prevent someone else from modifying a mod and using it for their own.<hr></blockquote>

Indeed I don't care what someone does with my mods on his own computer. And why should I?

But I'm really pissed when someones comes up, simply runs a sharpening filter and post 'his mod', even if he refers to me. I also don't like to see them posted somewhere without a request (even unrevised).

Well, indeed there's no way to avoid it then the way I have chosen: I've taken my mods offline last week because of such a copyright violation, and I seriously consider if will publish further mods.

Those plagiators forget that the modmakers take no harm when they don't share their mods.

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Scipio:

But I'm really pissed when someones comes up, simply runs a sharpening filter and post 'his mod', even if he refers to me. <hr></blockquote>

Why?

I am wondering how many people credit the original BTS artists? I get the feeling you are doing the same thing with your camo mods, aren't you? Or did BTS give you permission to use the webgear that came with the original artwork?

[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]</p>

[Gordon]

Scipio,

I'm trying to maintain a neutral position on all of this. This whole discussion was sparked to deal with the situation you found yourself in and to try to ensure that you and others won't be put in a similar situation. Now, accusing someone of being a plagarist, when as far as I can tell, plagarism is most definitely not what happened here, and especially someone who does not have access to the message boards is hardly constructive dialog leading towards a solution.

I will agree that the name of the mod was an unfortunate selection, and might lead to misunderstanding the origin of the graphics contained therein, but there was clear and precise documentation on the origins of every mod included.

We all understand that you have a gripe here, and we're trying to work things out.

Gordon

[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: Gordon ]</p>

[Scipio]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Why?<hr></blockquote>

Well, I propose you take a book, change the end and publish it. On the first page you write, thanks to XYZ, the original author, for his outstanding book, but I don't like the end, so I have changed it.

And by the way, maybe it would be okay if the mod is now better - but it isn't. And that's the why I want to be asked. I won't be related to something that refers to my name and has a quality that I'm not contented with.

[Scipio]

Gordon,

it was also documented that and how the mods are revised for the package. Maybe some people have missed it, but communism is out. Everything does not belong to everyone.

Anyway and once again: I just want to be asked. This is just a frienly geste. This is not expected to much. Yes, I can't be sure that everyone will do this. But if they not do this , and most peoples agrees to some kind of convention, maybe those pseudomoders can be teached that we don't like such actions.

And BTW, I din't know that M has no access to the board - he can send me mails without problems.

[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]</p>

[Scipio]

Oohps, double post

[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]</p>

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Scipio:

And by the way, maybe it would be okay if the mod is now better - but it isn't.(emphasis added) And that's the why I want to be asked. I won't be related to something that refers to my name and has a quality that I'm not contented with.<hr></blockquote>

So if the same situation arose, and you actually liked the mod, it would be ok?

If people hate the "new" mod, they won't use it, and if they do like the "new" mod, then it obviously has a quality that they are "contented with".

Isn't it up to what the people who use them think? Rather than for you to judge in advance for the entire CM community what is pleasing to the eye, and what is not?

[Scipio]

Michael, do you want to discuss every single sentence until you can nail me down on something?

I want to be asked, and over.

If the people don't want to show this simple friendliness, then thanks and goodbye.

[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]</p>

[Gyrene]

Michael, I understand Scipio's feelings on this.

You bust your eyeballs making a mod or a drawing, painting, animation or whatever and someone comes along and without or knowledge or permission makes a few minor changes and posts it as their own.

It hasn't happened to me (Haven't made enough mods, I can hardly call myself a modder), but I'd not be too happy if it did,unless the new version was of such excellent quality that it vastly improved the original and my name was in there somewhere.

I understand that the end users will pick the one that they like best and some users, myself included, will modify existing mods to suit their needs better. I really could care less what an end user does with my mods as long as they stay in the computers for their own use.

I don't think many of the modders here are recluses or unreacheable, and I'll assume that the vast majority, if not all, would be happy to grant you permission, even assistance in tweaking their mods if asked.

After all, scenario and map makers wouldn't like to have their creations copied, slightly modified and re-released as new; nor would a web designer like to see his entire HTML and site layout lifted for use in a website covering the same subject by someone else.

It's just common courtesy.

Gyrene

[Michael Dorosh]

I agree that it is courtesy, Gyrene. I just don't see the point in releasing what is essentially shareware and then objecting when people modify it and then want to share it - especially if they credit the original author.

It seems especially odd that Scipio, who is making use of BTS stock graphics (specifically web gear) in the use of "his" mods should be objecting to other people doing exactly what he is doing.

We are discussing uniform standards applied across the board here; that is what this entire thread is about. Well, perhaps Scipio should be prepared to accept the same restrictions he is seeking to place on others. It would seem he is not.

On the other hand, with the advent of CMMOS and a Central Registry of mods, the issue of piracy and plagiarism can be firmly dealt with. I hope Manx, Gordon and anyone else connected with, or with a stake in, the implementation of a standard for CMMOS mods will be active in arbitrating these cases. I think everyone wants what is fair, and if I like someone's redress of another mod more than I do the original mod, I don't think they should be restricted from releasing it.

In the end, this community polices itself; if a plagiarizer is only offering pale copies of a map, scenario or mod, he is not going to earn much in the way of respect for himself anyway. If it turns out people like his work better than the originals for some reason - then why restrict him (as long as the originals are credited)?

[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]</p>

[Scipio]

I'm tired of this bull****.

Michael, you are right with everything.

Because of this, I will keep them offline. I will not make further mods, graphical or sound, for public use.

This is a great victory for you. I hope you're happy now.

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]</p>

[Gordon]

Scipio,

I'm not arguing that you don't have a right to feel the way you do. I just did a cursory search of my mod-archive (I pretty much download everything), and I think I have several mods that are yours. A winter JgdPz IV, a winter Stug, a winter Churchill and winter Tiger. Now, of those 4, the only one that has a hint that it's yours is the winter Tiger which happens to have "Scipio" as part of the name of one of the preview images. So, where's the attribution and permission statements? How am I to know which are your mods and which are not? I'm sorry, but a statement on a web page isn't sufficient because that linkage is too easily lost once the mod is downloaded.

Let's refocus on what we're trying to do, which is trying to prevent this sort of mixup and confusion in the future.

So, aside from the wordiness, do you have any other concerns with the blanket disclaimers that I and Michael have proposed. Does anyone else have any issues or suggestions to improve them or alternatives to propose?

Web-masters, are you guys prepared to reject a mod that doesn't have whatever documentation we agree upon here or that doesn't conform to whatever naming convention is settled upon until such time as it does?

Gordon

[Michael Dorosh]

I'll add a personal example here; I've never mentioned any of this to Darknight by the way.

I was the first one to do up Canadian sleeve insignia mods, and I think the first one to do British ones also, and if not first, then the first one to do so on a wide scale.

Darknight comes along and, without even using my own mods as a base, modifies Andrew Fox's CW sleeve file - using my website as part of the basis for his research.

So what options did I have?

I could have cried foul, or threatened Darknight, or sulked and removed my site from public view.

I didn't do that; I applauded Darknight on his efforts and offered if I could host them - since they are superior to the ones I created and I wanted to do my bit to see that his work received the wide distribution it deserves.

I was pretty proud of my unique contribution to the CM community, but once Darknight's mods came along, it was clear whose work was better. Not only is the artwork superior, but Darknight has also taken the time to do a lot of independent research, so his work benefits in many ways mine does not. He has added even more variations that I never even dreamed of approaching.

So now I (and hopefully others as well) host his stuff, and I have written CMMOS rules for the Canadian ones (which will probably have to be rewritten, in the light of this thread). I don't get credit for any of his work, since it was all original by him.

Which is at it should be.

Do I wish I could retain some credit for being the first one to do these mods? A little, but I know I can't, and so in the end, what difference does it make? I'm just happy Darknight allows me to host his stuff, and I hope they receive the widest possible distribution. Once I get my server situation sorted out, I will happily consign my own mods to the recycle bin. And I will see to it that Darknight gets the credit he deserves for a job well done. He put a lot of work into it.

Basically, you can be a part of the mod community and support the work of others, even if it is similar to work you yourself have already done - or you can try and set up your own community complete with high walls and guard towers. The latter option can be quite lonely when push comes to shove.

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Are all modders here specially short-tempered ? Some months ago Tiger (JonS) quitted after a similar board discussion about "stolen" mods, now Scipio does the same..

Scipio, you quit and stop modding just to "punish" Gordon and Michael that did not share your views and were not kind to you ??

They can do the same, and next week modding will be dead. You just make the CM community poorer... sad

Oh well, back to work now ...

[SurlyBen]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

[...]

The Japanese never signed the convention and look how they acted. There was no way to MAKE them do so during the war, just as there is nothing from stopping me taking any of Scipio's, or any other mod, running a colour filter on it, changing a couple of details, and then calling it my own. Just as there was no stopping the Bataan Death March with lawyers. Granted, I would quickly earn the wrath of the modding community, and perhaps the entire CM community at large if I did something like that - and people noticed - but from a legal standpoint you would have failed. If, on the other hand, you have some way of effectively prohibiting others from doing this, go for it, but with the availability of artistic software and cheap/free web space for hosting mods, I don't see how that can be done.

[...]

<hr></blockquote>

It's actually pretty legally clear that if someone copies your work and then publishes it without your express written consent, a copyright violation has occurred (assuming that the copying doesn't fall under 'fair use'). This is as true in Canada as it is in the US.

In the USA it is also true that going after someone can be difficult and probably more expensive than it is worth if you haven't registered the copyright before hand. Especially in a case like free mods for a game, where there aren't any damages or loss of profits caused by the copyright violation. On the other hand, if you register the copyright, you can get statutory damages, and you may be able to force the person who violated your copyright to pay your legal fees (depending on when the violation occured and when you registered the copyright). Also registration counts as evidence of the validity of your copyright claim. My guess is that similar laws apply in other countries.

Registration costs $30 in the US, and you can register multiple works if they are part of a series (for example, the series of 2001 Combat mission Mods by Scipio). Registration adds some extra oomph to a cease and desist letter, and it makes it a lot easier to really ruin someone's day if they don't cease and desist.

[Clubfoot]

Jesus Christ. What a baby-fest.

Gordon,

You should carry on your quest with e-mails. This baby-land will only serve to pervert the discussion into an ego-drenched pissing match.

[Scipio]

Michael, yes, a file was wrongly included in my mods. But it was removed when I noticed the error. Still to blame for this is a bit unfair.

Some time ago Tiger leaves this community. You remember him? In the end he was totally frustrated by the actions of a few. He was one of the best moders this community had. My mods are not half so good that I can claim to be named in one sentence with him. But there are some parallels.

I don't know how much time I've spend to made this mods, but it's fun for me, so I don't care, and I will continue to make mods for myself. I have shared them with this community for nothing. All I expect is the little friendliness to be asked. A little respect for other peoples - in this case my own - work.

I have also started some discussions here whenever I had questions, doubts and ideas. Not all of them was good. The most of them ended into nothing because always the same people in this community talked them to death, not because they have the better ideas, only just because they are against everything and like to win in the discussion.

Now, when I'm totally frustrated, sick and tired, I'm blamed that I work against the common interest. I'm blamed to act like a child. I shall defend myself for the missuse of other peoples mods. I'm called an asshole on this board (in another threat).

This community (except one) was silent until it must fear to loose something.

Gordon - in your last mail, you proposed that I should reconsider for the benefit of this community. Gimme one, only just one good reason.

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]</p>

[Gordon]

Scipio,

You asked me to give you one good reason why you should stay and put up with this bull****. I'll give you several.

I too derive tremendous pleasure and satisfaction from producing mods. It's a huge investment in time and energy to produce each one. However, much of the satisfaction I derive is from sharing them with the CM:BO community. Note, I say community. They say you can't pick your family but you do pick the communities you choose to associate with. CM:BO is a fabulous game, and I can't wait to see what CM:BB has in store for us. However, if I was simply playing CM:BO against the AI and not involved in modding and spending time on this board (both of which far outstrip the time I actually play the damn game), the game would be far less valuable to me. Unfortunately, as with any community there are disjoint and discordant voices heard all the time, and due to their very nature they are the proverbial "squeeky wheel" that get's heard the most. However, there are far more people who don't even bother with this anarchy we call the message boards who appreciate and admire your work. Steve and Charles have put up with far more BS on the board than any of us have had to deal with. Thank god, whatever god, that they have stuck with it and continue to do so.

I have never questioned the fact that you have been "wronged" in this issue, only that your reaction has been over-wrought. If my position came off as otherwise, I apologize. Running away from trying to work towards a solution doesn't solve anything. Only you and the people who enjoy your work (myself included) are hurt. The others win, not you and I.

I was also in a similar situation to yours. Recently someone came out with a mod that was very, very similar to one of mine. Was it plagarism? I don't know, and I don't care. I could have made a fuss and threatened to withdraw all my mods and leave the CM:BO community, but I figured that the people who's opinions I care about, the modders whom I respect and who treat me as an equal, even though I'm nowhere near their level, recognized the situation for what it was. Now, I'm not saying that you were wrong in your actions with regard to your situation, just trying to let you know that I understand what you're going through more than you might think.

So, I'll respect whatever decision you make, and best wishes.

Thanks for your contributions,

Gordon

[Gordon]

Ok, quickly before I have to get to work. I've decided to stab Michael in the back ("et tu Gordon?") on the issue of disclaimers. I now believe, as Marco proposed, that anything not explicitly permitted is denied. So, therefore, I would propose the following amendments to my earlier positions:

1. A disclaimer SHOULD be included in the mod's Readme file (or whatever other standardized file is decided upon) and this disclaimer SHOULD be listed by the hosting web-site along with all the other mod information.

2. In the absence of an explicit disclaimer, anyone wishing to modify/adapt/extend or enhance someone else's mod MUST make a reasonable attempt (TBD) to contact the original mod's author to obtain permission. If such attempt is unsuccessful then the new mod MUST NOT be issued.

3. If a disclaimer is present that grants permission to make any and all changes, modifications and enhancements, the original author SHOULD be contacted before publication of the new mod as a "courtesy".

4. If a disclaimer is present that specifically prohibits any and all changes, modifications and enhancements, the original author must be contacted and permission received, otherwise the new mod MUST NOT be published.

(5 was dropped as it's really just an example of 4).

Gordon

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Gordon ]</p>

[Gordon]

Ok,

Quick lunch time update. Proposed standard dislaimers:

This mod pack is released for free unrestricted use to the CMBO community. Feel free to do anything you like to it, so long as modified versions are labelled as such, and credit given both to <YOUR NAME HERE> and any prior author(s) (In this case, <JOHN DOE, etc.> and BTS). This pack may be freely posted for downloading, but must not be charged for.

This mod pack is released for free in-game use to the CMBO community. Alteration or modification to any of the files contained here-in, or posting of this mod pack for download is exressely prohibited unless prior permission is obtained. This pack was based on <MOD NAME> by <JOHN DOE> and/or the BTS originals.

Gordon

[Michael Dorosh]

No stab perceived, Gordon. We all owe you a great deal for bringing this up in open forum and attempting to mediate a solution that will make everyone happy. It's long past time, and hopefully it will work out.

I pity the mod designers who are so wrapped up in their little empires that they throw themselves into fits when someone better comes along and alters or **gasp** improves their work. I should hope that permission is freely granted by mod artists, and would also hope that the permission you talk about is forthcoming.

A word to the wise - there is always going to be someone better than you, or better able to make use of your resources. It's something we all learn to live with...or not. Oh, damn, where is Simon Fox when I need him to tell me to shut up?

Anyway, and honestly, Gordon, the humble act is fine, but I have seen your work (never minding the miraculous CMMOS) and I think you stand with Marco, Shane, et al, as one of the leading mod artists (martists?) - though your Unit signs on Commonwealth vehicles are still too damn small!

Let the discourse continue; as for the disclaimers, I agree.

[Pzman]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene:

After all, scenario and map makers wouldn't like to have their creations copied, slightly modified and re-released as new

It's just common courtesy.

Gyrene<hr></blockquote>

You hit it right on the head. That is the entire issues is over something one person, (I am not naming names) did. Now here is a good question for you Scipio, why should the rest of us suffer because of one or two people made a copy? Now I don't usually say this, but what you have done is...let me be frank, is dumb. If Maximus or any other people did this then take it up with them. Don't put the blame on all of us. I use all your sound mods and some of the others, there on the edge of good/great. So I ask again why?

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Panzerman ]</p>

[bfamily33]

Gordon:

I think your two lunchtime disclaimers are reasonable.

Note to all those great modders (Bergmann, Tiger, Fernando, Kwazydog, you Gordon, Maximus (ouch - it hurt to say that last one ), etc., etc..

I for one have probably pushed the limits of using others mods as the foundation for my stuff. Know that there was absolutely no malicious intent on my part, nor dor I think on any other modder who has done the same. The drive to mod is driven by the desire to expand the enjoyment of the larger community.

For example, I would likely not have contributed to Frontovik were it not for the previous efforts of Marco's Shermans. Similiarly, my recent King Tiger would likely not have been produced were it not for Kwazydog's mod (I think it was KD's). My Tigers were built off Tiger's gray base. My Fallschirmjager mod used gear from Fox. If there's anything I've put out there that really burns someone, drop me a line and I'll go see if I can get it retracted.

All that said, I hope I haven't ticked any of you masters off. I do respect your efforts and true artistic talents. With Gordon's disclaimers, can we all (to include you Scipio) get back to what we all enjoy?

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: bfamily33 ]</p>

[AndrewTF]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Panzerman:

You hit it right on the head. That is the entire issues is over something one person, (I am not naming names) did. Now here is a good question for you Scipio, why should the rest of us suffer because of one or two people made a copy? Now I don't usually say this, but what you have done is...let me be frank, is dumb. If Maximus or any other people did this then take it up with them. Don't put the blame on all of us.

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Panzerman ]<hr></blockquote>

Aren't mods made for the enjoyment of the CM community in the first place? There's no reason to get so bent out of shape.

Quite a few people have monkeyed with my uniform mods, most have asked permission or at least sent me an example of the work, and most give me appropriate credit (i.e. "here's my variation on Andrew's uniform mod..."). I've also noticed some unauthorized use of my mods, such as another modder "borrowing" the equipment off my German uniforms without asking or even telling me (care to guess who? ). Stuff like that happens, and it does annoy me, but never to the point of actually making me really upset. If it really bugged me then I'd have no problem asking said individual(s) to knock it off, and I'm willing to bet it wouldn't happen again.

I guess I'm trying to say: yeah, mod artists have a right to be annoyed over unauthorized use, but lighten up. As far as I can tell plagiarism not a rampant problem in the CM community, and after all we are all kinda one big happy dysfunctional family

Besides, doesn't something like CMMOS, for example further the well-being of the community (except for us neglected Mac users) and the functionality of the game? Why wouldn't a modder want to help out.

That said, disclaimers are a good thing, and I think I'll be using one of Gordon's from now on...

[bfamily33]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by AndrewTF:

I've also noticed some unauthorized use of my mods, such as another modder "borrowing" the equipment off my German uniforms without asking or even telling me (care to guess who? ).

... after all we are all kinda one big happy dysfunctional family <hr></blockquote>

:eek: I have seen the enemy, and it is I!

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: bfamily33 ]</p>