Berkut Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Just out of curiosity I decided to run a series of fairly straightforward fire-tests, using a number of german panzers vs a sherman easy-eight and a firefly VC. At ranges of 600 mtrs I found that both allied tanks scored hits on a King Tiger at a fairly constant rate[this was aginst the front armour of the king tiger, I observed hits on the turret and upper/lower slope of the front glacis]. It would kill the KG on the third shot 60% of the time. And the allied tanks would employ tungsten every time they fired at it. At ranges in excess of 600 mtrs and up to 1000mtrs the allied tanks would fire tungsten once and would revert to standard AP rounds. I put this down to the degraded accuracy of the guns at these ranges, and (an example of the improved AI at work)the tanks crews not wishing to waste precious tungsten rounds. I then ran the tests versus SP's and TD's like the JagdTiger. I noticed everytime regardless of range, the allied armour never fired a tungsten round against these targets. While AP rounds were good against stugs & pzIV/70's they were pretty useless against the heavier TDs in the german armoury. Does the AI regard all Sp's and turretless vehicles as not worth the expense of tungsten? or is this some sort of bug? ------------------ BERKUT <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As always feel free to query, deride, or just nod knowingly<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 "Let's club this one to death. He's not worth a bullet." ------------------ Check out http://www.geocities.com/funfacts2001/ or http://hyperion.spaceports.com/~funfacts/ for military documents written during WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeWary Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Seems like a valid question to me. I'd sure want my tanks firing their tungsten if they were facing a JagdTiger! I guess some more testing is in order. BeWary ------------------ "Liberty or Death?" Make it "Victory or Pretty Damned Badly Wounded", and I'm yours. - a prospective recruit during the American Revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Jasper, his question is valid, I wonder why nobody ever came up with that??? gngngngn.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkut Posted February 7, 2001 Author Share Posted February 7, 2001 I thought I had come across an unusual bug, and decided to run a few fire tests to check it out, rather than rant away like some demented fool. I did the tests, after observing a sherman firefly fail to use tungsten ammo in three fights with german sp's[it lost the third being taken out by pzIV 70]. I thought this odd and ran the tests. I did observe a reluctance to use tungsten ammo against the sp's including the jagdtiger. I ran other tests and observed that the only time allied tanks fired tungsten until they achieved a kill was against the King Tiger I don't know about jasper, but I would be very frustrated at this, especially if i lost tanks to this bug/TAC AI quirk. HAs anyone else observed this or should i be [as jasper would like to see] clubbed to death? ------------------ BERKUT <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As always feel free to query, deride, or just nod knowingly<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacky Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 Originally posted by Berkut: I thought I had come across an unusual bug, and decided to run a few fire tests to check it out, rather than rant away like some demented fool. You might have. Last night my 76mm ATG (US, late war) refused to fire its two round of tungsten at a jadgpanther. It kept firing AP round one after the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armornut Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 For what it is worth, I have had a few Fireflys that would not use Tungsten rounds against Hetzers. It has not been tested, just a moment that sticks out in my mind. He fired a total of 6 shots and no tungsten rounds were used. The range was around 700m. The first two were side shots that missed, then one upper-hull hit, a miss, and then a lower-hull penitration with only one killed. I just chalked it up to having a regular crew. Just my 2 cents, Armornut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 Well, I just spent the last 90 minuets testing this (the things I do for this game...) and I believe I have isolated the problem. It is almost certainly a bug (at least I hope it's not a design decision). Berkut, go into your editor and set the number of AP rounds for your Fireflys to 34 and retest. Magic! I only tested this at 700m but at that range the Firefly will only use tungsten when the number of AP rounds falls below 35. This is for Sherman VC Firefly vs. Jadgtigers or Jadgpanthers. Here's an even weirder thing. It makes no difference how many tungsten rounds you have, only AP (HE has no effect either). I changed the ammo loadout so the Fireflys had 36 AP and 30 (!) tungsten. Evey time I ran the test (and I ran dozens of them) the Fireflys would fire 2 rounds of AP then switch to tungsten. Lower the AP to 35 and they fire one round of AP then switch to tungsten. Set AP to 34 rounds and they start off firing tungsten first thing. This is the same with 2 rounds of tungsten or 30. I thought this had all been fixed in 1.1 but it looks like there are still some problems. ------------------ You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV [This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 02-07-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 Originally posted by Vanir: Well, I just spent the last 90 minuets testing this (the things I do for this game...) and I believe I have isolated the problem.... Set AP to 34 rounds and they start off firing tungsten first thing. This is the same with 2 rounds of tungsten or 30. Good job guys. I guess it's maybe a good idea to shoot at a knocked out vehicle while in a safe position to use up AP rounds. I mean, how many times do you keep tanks alive long enough to use up it's AP? I know I get like 2-3 shots before I'm dead ------------------ Jeff Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkut Posted February 7, 2001 Author Share Posted February 7, 2001 Originally posted by Vanir: Berkut, go into your editor and set the number of AP rounds for your Fireflys to 34 and retest. Magic! It seems you are right. It must be some script in the AI concerning ammunition use. But since I observed that no matter how much they have, they will unload all their tungsten into the KT, making me think there must be another AI script that puts the KT at the top of the threat list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 "I thought I had come across an unusual bug, and decided to run a few fire tests to check it out, rather than rant away like some demented fool." Berkut, don't take Jasper and my post as directed against you, they were just cheap jokes about the fact that this tungsten use/nonuse is a running gag/bug all the time, and personally I think it will never get fixed completely ) so, again, your post is totally ok (your, and especially vanir's research into this, ARE very important), the comments were in jest. I am eagerly awaiting someone official step in here and comment...after all, 1.2 will be the final patch so there's still hope that this might get fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkut Posted February 7, 2001 Author Share Posted February 7, 2001 Originally posted by M Hofbauer: [bBerkut, don't take Jasper and my post as directed against you, they were just cheap jokes about the fact that this tungsten use/nonuse is a running gag/bug all the time, and personally I think it will never get fixed completely ) Don't worry, i never took the comments seriously at all, i'm too old a bunny to get worked up about it. I was not aware of the running gags as I have not posted here in quite a while. The last time was during the epic 88mm thread, were we agreed to disagree about ap shell vs ap shot ) I seriously hope some does examine this and sort it out. ------------------ BERKUT <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As always feel free to query, deride, or just nod knowingly<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Worth bumping methinks. Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 So the question is, as I see it, is this a bug or a conscious design decision? Matt? Steve? Charles? I mean, a JadgTiger is more heavily armored than a King Tiger and if anything, Tungsten should be fired at the JT before it should be fired at the KT (just my opinion). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crank_GS Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Good work, guys. I have observed some odd behavior in this regard, though nothing that I have (yet) catalogued as well as this. I too am anxious to see official reply. ------------------ Capt. Byron Crank, US Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkut Posted February 8, 2001 Author Share Posted February 8, 2001 I conducted another series of fire tests, this time with the archer and sherman firefly. The distribution of tungsten to AP is similar to the firefly[without tweaking in the editor and using regular crews]I found although the FF again did not employ it's tungsten rounds the archer fired all of it's tungsten rounds against the Jagdtiger before employing AP rounds. I must admit to being very confused about this one. The theory put forward that it is down to levels of ammo [the crews think they are short and are trying to conserve it]is not borne out by these new tests. So at least TD's like the archer have Jagdtigers up there with the king tiger in their high threat rating regards ------------------ BERKUT <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As always feel free to query, deride, or just nod knowingly<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 Originally posted by Berkut: I must admit to being very confused about this one. The theory put forward that it is down to levels of ammo [the crews think they are short and are trying to conserve it]is not borne out by these new tests. The behavior I noted only occured with the Firefly. I did not test much else, but 76mm armed Shermans seemed to work normally. This may only effect the Firefly, or it may only effect other vehicles in rare cases. The theory put forward is not that the crews think they are short of tungsten. The theory is that a bug causes the Firefly to not fire tungsten if it has more than 34 AP rounds, regardless of the amount of tungsten. Bugs to not have to be logical. Actually, I don't think it's a theory being as it's been proven. ------------------ You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV [This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 02-08-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkut Posted February 9, 2001 Author Share Posted February 9, 2001 Originally posted by Vanir: The behavior I noted only occured with the Firefly. I did not test much else, but 76mm armed Shermans seemed to work normally. This may only effect the Firefly, or it may only effect other vehicles in rare cases. I conducted a couple of other tests, using an "easy 8" and and M18. They would not use tungsten agianst the Jagdtiger, but would use it against the KT (but at extreme ranges they would only use the tungsten round once...see my original post). The archer again was the only vehicle that would employ tungsten despite having AP rounds less than 35, i think it had around 28 ap 7 tungsten. If it is not AI scripted behaviour, and I can't think it is, looking at the frsh results, then we must look at this erratic behaviour as some form of bug, and the powers that be should be looking into to it. I think we should keep bumping it up until one of them decides to have a look regards ------------------ BERKUT <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As always feel free to query, deride, or just nod knowingly<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbhawkins Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 what version of the game are you using? 1.1 or 1.05? Peter hawkins CAPT RAAMC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbhawkins Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 what version of the game are you using? 1.1 or 1.05? Peter hawkins CAPT RAAMC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 bump ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Priest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 There is no "Scripted Ai Behavior" as such and I just ran through some test and do not concur with your results. I placed 4 Fireflys (all had 40+ AP rounds) against 6 JagdTigers and they all employed their Tungsten with one Firefly fireing all 6 of his rounds and then switching to AP before he was taken out. I also tested this with ranges under 600 meters and then again at ranges over 1300. I saw nothing peculiar about the usuage of Tungsten. The TacAi seemed intelligent about its usage and seemed to use it when it they could. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkut Posted February 9, 2001 Author Share Posted February 9, 2001 Originally posted by Madmatt: There is no "Scripted Ai Behavior" as such and I just ran through some test and do not concur with your results. I placed 4 Fireflys (all had 40+ AP rounds) Don't often get the chance to pull up one of the designers, so i taking full advantage. I never ran the tests with the ammo values tweaked, I only did that once when Vanir mentioned it. I ran a check of ten tests for each variant FF vs KT FF vs JT Archer vs KT and so on, with normal loads and one tank versus the other. Each time I saw the same results. Would it be presumptious of me to ask you to conduct a similar test with single tanks? with ammo loads given only in a typical scenario? I think you might see the results which we were speaking of. After all how many times would you have to face six Jagdtigers? I did not place this post because i am a troublemaker, but because I had observed erratic behaviour and that bothers me. I would hate to lose a game because of this. ps: I use version 1.1 regards ------------------ BERKUT <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As always feel free to query, deride, or just nod knowingly<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 I have tested it with single vehicles against each other (trust me I am quite thorough when it comes to testing) and my findings stand. A Firefly pitted against a Jagdtiger will favor the Tungsten in my testing. I am not sure what you are seeing exactly (perhaps it was resolved in 1.12). If you want to send me a test file with a situation all setup I will have a look but as far as I can tell, I see nothing amiss. Madmatt [This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 02-09-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 Well, I just retested with 1.12 and it seems to be working fine now. Good job BTS ------------------ You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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