Does the 75mm/45 use same ammo as the 75mm/70?

[offtaskagain]

What the hell are those rounds on the left? Are they 50mm and 37mm?

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

What the hell are those rounds on the left? Are they 50mm and 37mm?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would guess as follows (left to right):

1. 37mm PAK

2. 50 mm APCR maybe L42

3. 50mm L60 Shell HE or other (smoke, etc)

4. 75mm L24 Shell (HE, HEAT, smoke)

5. 75mm L43 and L48 (but not PAK40 L46) Shell, etc

6. Panther 75mmL70 AP39/42

7. Flak 88mmL56 shell type. Note: The Tiger used an electrical firing mechanism and this round might not be suitable in a Tiger I but rather just in Flak weapons.

8. 88L71 Shell type

Of all the rounds, I would say the Panther AP is the most clearly identifiable.

The arrow head round is most likely a AP40 50mm L42 (which were known to jam in the gun after firing and had to be pushed out (the cartridge).

The payload on the 75mm L24 and L43/48 shells is very comparable to the 88s and dwarfs the 50mm. Perhaps the german 75mm tank guns had a bigger payload than the US much-vaunted sherman 75mm?

Lewis

Heres my flak-happy friend Gunter showing us his yellow anti-aircraft shell.

[ 05-27-2001: Message edited by: Username ]

[Username]

Looks like the 88L71 PAK and KWK could not fire the Flak 41 long 88..

"Comparison of characteristics between the 88mm Flak 41 and the 88mm KwK 36 quickly reveals the difficulties created by mounting the longer gun in a turret designed for the shorter gun. Even if a gun mount could have been designed to allow the physical installation of the longer Flak 41, there remained the overwhelming problems of balancing the gun, protecting the very long recoil cylinders, traversing the resulting imbalanced turret, and loading the much longer rounds (1200mm versus 931mm).

Comparison of the 88mm guns Name KwK 36 Flak 41 KwK 43

Gun Length (mm) 4930 6548 6298

Length in calibres 56 74 71

Round Length (mm)

Spgr.Patr. (HE) 931 1200 1167

Pzgr.Patr.39 (AT) 873 1158 1125

Cartridge case (mm) 570 85 822

Also, there was the sensitive question, for Krupp, of mounting an arch rival's gun (the Flak 41 was designed by Rheinmetall) in their turret.

Anyway, on 5 February 1943, Krupp was awarded the contract for the development of the 88mm KwK 43 L/71, a new gun specifically designed to the successor of the Tiger I. The only similarity between this gun designed by Krupp and the Rheinmetall Flak 41 was that the same penetration values were achieved when the same shell was fired with the same initial muzzle velocity. All other characteristics of the two guns were different. Following the main specification to achieve equivalent armor penetration, Krupp completely redesigned the gun for mounting in a tank turret. As compared to the Flak 41 L/74, the KwK 43 L/71 was shorter with different rifling and had a muzzle brake to retard recoil. In addition it had shorter, fatter recoil cylinders to fit inside a turret, had an air blast system fitted to evacuate fumes from the gun directly after firing and chambered a shorter (but fatter) cartridge case for easier loading inside a turret."

This is from..

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger2.htm

While the first two trial guns,V1 and V2 for the 88mm KwK 43 were monoblock, the third trial gun, V3, had already been fabricated following the sectional monoblock design. The multiple piece barrel of the sectional monoblock design improved the life of the gun and simplified manufacturing.

[M Hofbauer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matthew_Ridgeway:

yellow = HE

(TM E9-369A)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't aware that the germans were coloring their ammo according to an american TechnicalManual

but seriously, the picture username posted:

would suggest that the yellow projectile in your interesting ammo picture is not ordinary/regular HE but a special fused anti-aircraft ammo variant (note the yellow is shown only on the 88 L/56 ammo which is practically 8,8cm FlaK ammo)...or?

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

I wasn't aware that the germans were coloring their ammo according to an american TechnicalManual

but seriously, the picture username posted:

would suggest that the yellow projectile in your interesting ammo picture is not ordinary/regular HE but a special fused anti-aircraft ammo variant (note the yellow is shown only on the 88 L/56 ammo which is practically 8,8cm FlaK ammo)...or?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TM E9-369A, German 88-mm Antiaircraft Gun Materiel, 29 June 43 and TM E9-803,

Could it also be that this US document he sites is from before the end of the war? Thats some hot intel you got there mat_ridge...

[Matthew_Ridgeway]

M Hofbauer Said: “I wasn't aware that the germans were coloring their ammo according to an american TechnicalManual ”

Well of course the US was responsible of all spec’s on German Ordnance. It’s all part of the world wide evil military industrial complex bent on the destruction of mankind while at the same time lining their pockets with profits from munitions sales.

Just for your own edification the “E” in “TM-E” lets the reader know that the tech manual details enemy equipment. Fairly specilized form of tech manual. In the case of TM E9-369A it was prepared from both; examination of specifications and firing tables captured from the Germans in N. Africa, as well as weapons and munitions recovered from the Africa Korps. In addition, several Flak 88’s were shipped back to the states for gunnery testing at APG as well as metallurgical exams on captured ammunition at the now defunct Watertown Arsenal Labs (now an EPA clean up site do to PCB and PAH soil and groundwater contamination). The Allies were quite keen on the workings of the 88mm for obvious reasons. APG even conducted test firing of captured flak 88’s pz.gr. against RHA samples.

In the case of the FLAK 88, a shell color scheme of yellow is high explosive. The rest of the work is accomplished by fuzes (i.e. mechanical timed fuze, electrical time fuze, percussion fuze, etc.).

With respect to surface to air applications of the FLAK 88 the Germans often employed Incendiary Shrapnel projectiles (one of the few shrapnel round hold-outs in the world wide switch over from shrapnel to high-explosive following WWI). However color spec’s for shrapnel rounds were: body painted blue and the ogive red (as per US War Department specifications ). Electrical time fuzed.

[ 05-28-2001: Message edited by: Matthew_Ridgeway ]

[Username]

Heres another lineup of ammo. Unfortunately its in B&W and not that clear. Its from the panzermuseum Munster website. Anyone translate German?

Spreng- u. Panzergranatpatronen sowie Geschosse und Treibladungskartuschen, wie sie aus den Waffen der Panzer, Panzerjäger und Pz.-Haubitzen im Kaliber 5,0-15 cm zur Bekämpfung von Zielen aller Art bis 1945 eingesetzt wurden. In Bildmitte 12,8 cm Panzer- u. Sprenggranate mit Treibladungskartusche des "Jagdtiger". Links daneben 8,8 cm Granatpatronen der Pz.Kampfwagen Vl "Tiger I" und II "Königstiger".

I would guess that the smallest ammo is a 50mm L60 AP40 dart ammo. The largest looks like a Brummbar 150mm two part round. The other two part round looks like the 128mm JagdTiger showing both types of projectiles for this weapon.

[ 05-28-2001: Message edited by: Username ]

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

Heres another lineup of ammo. Unfortunately its in B&W and not that clear. Its from the panzermuseum Munster website. Anyone translate German?

Spreng- u. Panzergranatpatronen sowie Geschosse und Treibladungskartuschen, wie sie aus den Waffen der Panzer, Panzerjäger und Pz.-Haubitzen im Kaliber 5,0-15 cm zur Bekämpfung von Zielen aller Art bis 1945 eingesetzt wurden. In Bildmitte 12,8 cm Panzer- u. Sprenggranate mit Treibladungskartusche des "Jagdtiger". Links daneben 8,8 cm Granatpatronen der Pz.Kampfwagen Vl "Tiger I" und II "Königstiger".

I would guess that the smallest ammo is a 50mm L60 AP40 dart ammo. The largest looks like a Brummbar 150mm two part round. The other two part round looks like the 128mm JagdTiger showing both types of projectiles for this weapon.

[ 05-28-2001: Message edited by: Username ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heres an extremely literal translation by Alta Vista.

Blowing up and tank garnet cartridges as well as projectiles and propellant cartouches, as they were used from the weapons of the tanks, tank hunters and Pz. howitzers in the caliber of 5.0-15 cm for the fight against targets of all kinds until 1945. In picture fig. 12.8 cm tank and high-explosive shell with propellant cartouche " hunt tigers ". Left beside it 8.8 cm garnet cartridges of the Pz.Kampfwagen Vl " tigers I " and II " king tigers

I interpret this to mean "High explosive and armor piercing shells, as well as seperate projectiles and propellant casings from 5.0 cm to 15.0 cm, that were used in WWII by tanks, tank destroyers and AT guns."

The big one is indeed from a Brumbar, with HE and AP rounds above a propellant case for the Jagdtiger. To the left of that are complete shells for Tiger Is and KTs, with a Panther round in between I think

[ 05-28-2001: Message edited by: panzerwerfer42 ]

[M Hofbauer]

M_R thanks for the info!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matthew_Ridgeway:

Well of course the US was responsible of all spec’s on German Ordnance. It’s all part of the world wide evil military industrial complex bent on the destruction of mankind while at the same time lining their pockets with profits from munitions sales.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, the world government is behind all this...shhhh...they are monitoring everyone of us everywhere !

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Just for your own edification the “E” in “TM-E” lets the reader know that the tech manual details enemy equipment. Fairly specilized form of tech manual. (...)

APG as well as metallurgical exams on captured ammunition at the now defunct Watertown Arsenal Labs <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I take it APG refers to Aberdeen Proving Ground...?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In the case of the FLAK 88, a shell color scheme of yellow is high explosive. The rest of the work is accomplished by fuzes (i.e. mechanical timed fuze, electrical time fuze, percussion fuze, etc.).

With respect to surface to air applications of the FLAK 88 the Germans often employed Incendiary Shrapnel projectiles (one of the few shrapnel round hold-outs in the world wide switch over from shrapnel to high-explosive following WWI). However color spec’s for shrapnel rounds were: body painted blue and the ogive red (as per US War Department specifications ). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see. Thanks for clearing that up!

As for that ammo's effectiveness, please see Maxipad's famous quote in the sig.

[M Hofbauer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

Its from the panzermuseum Munster website. Anyone translate German?

Spreng- u. Panzergranatpatronen sowie Geschosse und Treibladungskartuschen, wie sie aus den Waffen der Panzer, Panzerjäger und Pz.-Haubitzen im Kaliber 5,0-15 cm zur Bekämpfung von Zielen aller Art bis 1945 eingesetzt wurden. In Bildmitte 12,8 cm Panzer- u. Sprenggranate mit Treibladungskartusche des "Jagdtiger". Links daneben 8,8 cm Granatpatronen der Pz.Kampfwagen Vl "Tiger I" und II "Königstiger".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that text doesn't really say a lot, from the hip:

(the text seems to refer to the museum's featured exhibits, which include...) HE- and AP-cartridges as well as projectiles and powder charges (shells), which were used in the armament of Tanks, Tank Destroyers and SP Artillery in the calibres ranging from 5.0 to 15cm for engaging targets of all kinds until 1945. In the center of the picture (you can see) 12.8cm AP and HE projectile with shell casing (as complete cartridge) as used in the Jagdtiger. To the left of these 8.8cm cartridges of the Tiger I and II.

[gunnergoz]

Does anybody following this thread collect actual large ordnance ammo rounds? (Inert of course).

Just curious...I do, and would like to hear from others about their collections.

[ 05-28-2001: Message edited by: gunnergoz ]

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gunnergoz:

Does anybody following this thread collect actual large ordnance ammo rounds? (Inert of course).

Just curious...I do, and would like to hear from others about their collections.

[ 05-28-2001: Message edited by: gunnergoz ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The largest round I can claim is a 30mm from an A-10. Naturally this one is minus the depleted-uranium penetrator. Not really in the league of tank rounds but it looks really cool on top of the TV.

[Username]

The 150mm and 128mm shells dont appear to be yellow. They seem to be a light green color.

The long 88mm does appear to be very light colored though. If the three to the left of the 128mm AP round are 88 longs, they dont appear to be the same height. Perhaps they are a mix of Flak 41 and KWK 43 rounds. The two 88 L56 rounds appear to be black and yellow also.

Lewis

Anyone else have pics of german projectiles?

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

Anyone else have pics of german projectiles?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gawd, this is starting to sound like a porn site. Hmmm.

Michael

[offtaskagain]

I found this page with some info.

http://www.miniatures.de/html/int/shellsW.html

It says black was AP, yellow or dark green was HE, and light grey/green were HC. That offers a bit of explanation as to the B/W picture. Beware of the gun info on the site, some of it appears to be not quite correct.

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

I found this page with some info.

Beware of the gun info on the site, some of it appears to be not quite correct.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From the website:

"15 cm Wire Guided Missile H.C. (Munroe) 206 mm

The Rotkäppchen was a winged bomb with the usual 15 cm Igr. 39 Hl/A artillery shell H.C. warhead, fired from a sled. Like its modern counterparts, this wire guided device had a joystick for remote control. The weapon was introduced in 1945, and it was apparently used on the Eastern Front."

Is this guy for real? What about a rocket-powered sled dog with an explosive warhead on his collar like a St Bernhard?

Lewis

[Stalins Organ]

Fired FROM a sled does not mean it was a rocket powered sled!!

[Username]

From the same site..

"Main Armament of the Panther tank. There was also a 75 mm L.70 tank destroyer based on a standard Sd.Kfz. 251 light halftrack, which had the weapon mounted across the top of the crew compartment. "

This modeler should read the warnings about proper ventilation when using solvents..

[M Hofbauer]

Username -

your mocking/ridicule is misplaced, the little red riding hood ATGM was indeed in troop trials at the end of the war

http://www.geocities.com/pizzatest/panzerfaust12.htm

As regards the 251/7,5cm L/70 combo, out of the hundreds of weird vehicle/gun combinations I am sure there was also a plan to put the KwK 7,5cm L/70 onto a 251 chassis: remember the regular 7,5cm PaK 40 mount onto the 251/22, and I have documents here that there were trials involving a full-grown 8,8cm PaK 43 onto the SdKfz 251 :eek: , of course it was not feasible but they sure tried. So I think it is very reasonable to assume that inbetween these two they also tried the 7,5cm L/70.

[Paul Lakowski]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

Username -

As regards the 251/7,5cm L/70 combo, out of the hundreds of weird vehicle/gun combinations I am sure there was also a plan to put the KwK 7,5cm L/70 onto a 251 chassis: remember the regular 7,5cm PaK 40 mount onto the 251/22, and I have documents here that there were trials involving a full-grown 8,8cm PaK 43 onto the SdKfz 251 :eek: , of course it was not feasible but they sure tried. So I think it is very reasonable to assume that inbetween these two they also tried the 7,5cm L/70.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought that Chamberlin and Dolyes book reported that the 75L70 mounted on half track was tried in 1943 and found to be a failure ...too unstable?

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

Username -

your mocking/ridicule is misplaced, the little red riding hood ATGM was indeed in troop trials at the end of the war

http://www.geocities.com/pizzatest/panzerfaust12.htm

As regards the 251/7,5cm L/70 combo, out of the hundreds of weird vehicle/gun combinations I am sure there was also a plan to put the KwK 7,5cm L/70 onto a 251 chassis: remember the regular 7,5cm PaK 40 mount onto the 251/22, and I have documents here that there were trials involving a full-grown 8,8cm PaK 43 onto the SdKfz 251 :eek: , of course it was not feasible but they sure tried. So I think it is very reasonable to assume that inbetween these two they also tried the 7,5cm L/70.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The guy with that website is saying that it is an option. He isnt saying that it was tried but a weapon system that was used.

As for your website it says:

"Many almost finished weapons were captured by the allies.

It is unclear whether the combat trial at the front took place or which results it had."

So thats "indeed taking place" in your mind? Never mind..

Myself, I would have put a 12.8 cm PAK gun on a Kettengrad cause it needed to be tried so future wargamers could buy it with a rarity factor.

Lewis

[Matthew_Ridgeway]

M Hofbauer Said: “I take it APG refers to Aberdeen Proving Ground...?”

Yes.

By the way your Panzerfaust web site is quite excellent. Very erudite. I have had it book marked for quite some time.

http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust3.htm

===================================

USER Said: “The 150mm and 128mm shells dont appear to be yellow. They seem to be a light green color.”

There is a rather simple explanation for your continued quandary; German FLAK and NAVAL Ordnance were color-coded yellow for HE. Army spr.gr. for the 100mm gun, 105mm howitzer, 150mm howitzer, etc. etc. etc. were green or OD depending on weather you are color blind or not. Spr.gr. for the FLAK 128mm was color coded yellow. Conversely HE for the L/55 was green.

[M Hofbauer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Lakowski:

I thought that Chamberlin and Dolyes book reported that the 75L70 mounted on half track was tried in 1943 and found to be a failure ...too unstable?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that might very well have been the case. All that's sure is that it did not enter production, and that reason seems to be the most natural one.

The story of the 7.5cm PaK onn the SdKfz 251/22 is another one however. After the first 40 were built in 1944, the production was kept up and another 228 were built in 1945 (which suggests it was put on a high manufacture priority and higher numbers would have been built had the war lasted longer) - those 228 built in 1945 are the highest single production figure of all SdKfz 250 and 251 variants (excpet base model) that I am aware of. Easily beats CM's 250/9, for example (154 built), the closest competitor in 1945 production figures.

Maybe the Pak 7,5cm was already too much for the 251...but think about it, the rather successful Jagdpanzer IV/70 was actually an engineering failure as well (wrong weight distribution, very front-heavy with armor and armament which clearly exceeded the front wheels stress allowance) but proved itself rather successful in action. Maybe something similar with the 251/22 ? At least the users called the 251/22 an "exceptional well weapon system". I have a picture of it here. It looks _ugly_.

[M Hofbauer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

The guy with that website is saying that it is an option. He isnt saying that it was tried but a weapon system that was used.

As for your website it says:

"Many almost finished weapons were captured by the allies.

It is unclear whether the combat trial at the front took place or which results it had."

So thats "indeed taking place" in your mind? Never mind..

Myself, I would have put a 12.8 cm PAK gun on a Kettengrad cause it needed to be tried so future wargamers could buy it with a rarity factor.

Lewis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

username,

I did not say that putting a KwK 7,5cm L/70 onto a 251 was the best thing since sliced bread, I merely said that your rather harsh mockery of those modellers is unwarranted since that concept was indeed thought about by the german s in ww2 so they might try to recreate that in a model just as much as those engineers back then very well might have.

The combat trials of the Rotkäppchen are not really established (although reports exist), but it _is_ an established fact thing that many completed weapons were built and used - at least on the proving grounds. So, it is a weapons system that existed but it's combat use is questionable. Nobody ever mocked all the model manufacturers for the He-162 Salamander / Volksjäger jet kits. Many were built, but none of them saw combat. Would you ridicule model builders for building He-162 scale models as well?

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matthew_Ridgeway:

[QB

There is a rather simple explanation for your continued quandary; German FLAK and NAVAL Ordnance were color-coded yellow for HE. Army spr.gr. for the 100mm gun, 105mm howitzer, 150mm howitzer, etc. etc. etc. were green or OD depending on weather you are color blind or not. Spr.gr. for the FLAK 128mm was color coded yellow. Conversely HE for the L/55 was green.[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well thanks but may I remind you that you were the one claiming HE=YELLOW?

:confused:

So its rather your misapplication of a US TM than my quandary. I am just analyzing the facts and evidence.

But the only real CM issue here, to me, is the german 75mm HE shells size. I really believe that the standard German 75mm L24,L43,L48 Sprgr had more punch than most allied 75mm tank guns.

Lewis