Does the 75mm/45 use same ammo as the 75mm/70?

[M Hofbauer]

just as side information for username (and maybe of interest to Paul),

please note that already very early in the war the germans even put the 8,8cm FlaK 38 onto the 12t and 18t tractor halftracks, together with an armored cabin, to create an ad-hoc armored vehicle mounting the important 8,8. Theformer were used by the schwere Panzerjägerabteilung 6 in the Polish campaign, together with the 18t versions which were ordered in 19040 they took part in the French campaign then:

http://www.militarygamer.net/CloseCombatAxis&Allies/8812t.jpg

other gun - halftrack combinations existed as well, for example they also put the russian 7.62 field gun onto a 5to tractor with armored cabin.

(please see my sig below on that)

edit of post above: the "ugly picture of the 251/22" probably shows just the 7.5cm Selbstfahrlafette L/40.8, a pre-war concept, and not the 251/22. Other pictures of the 251/22 show it as a rather aesthetic vehicle.

[M Hofbauer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

But the only real CM issue here, to me, is the german 75mm HE shells size. I really believe that the standard German 75mm L24,L43,L48 Sprgr had more punch than most allied 75mm tank guns.

Lewis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that is your sole concern then that is easily solved. But first you need to define "punch". If you equate punch with energy/momentum carried as most people would probably interpret "punch", then you can easily calculate that from projectile weight and initial projectile velocity.

[Matthew_Ridgeway]

USER Said: “Well thanks but may I remind you that you were the one claiming HE=YELLOW?”

I can see this subject is very complicated for you. I will relay it one more time…read slowly.

Yellow = HE

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matthew_Ridgeway:

USER Said: I can see this subject is very complicated for you. I will relay it one more time…read slowly.

Yellow = HE

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for showing everyone that you cant follow the thread. You start by saying that color is a dead giveaway. It isnt. Anyone that has followed this thread can percieve that by now.

You cant.

Color alone is not a dead giveaway. Read that again if you have to.

I dont think you have proved otherwise. So you can stop with your silly equation. The only thing that might be true is that Flak weapon SHELL types have yellow as a case color. See if you can get your mind around that. Just as olive green panzer shells might be smoke or HE or HEAT depending on some other signifier. Is it sinking in at all?

So maybe if you stopped rolling your eyes and read the thread a little closer , we would all be better off.

Lewis

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

If that is your sole concern then that is easily solved. But first you need to define "punch". If you equate punch with energy/momentum carried as most people would probably interpret "punch", then you can easily calculate that from projectile weight and initial projectile velocity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well its been raised in other threads but I dont think that BTS has ever responded to it. It seems that the germans had multiple HE types for the L24, L43 and L48 family of tank (KWK) and assault guns (StuK). The big question is if the standard Sprgr 34 was the heavy payload type.

Anyway, I define punch as a combination of the payload (predominately) and the kinetic energy that the 1/2mv^2 gives the shell. Depending on target type (point or area or vehicle) they have different effects.

Lewis

[Matthew_Ridgeway]

USER Said: “Well its been raised in other threads but I dont think that BTS has ever responded to it. It seems that the germans had multiple HE types for the L24, L43 and L48 family of tank (KWK) and assault guns (StuK). The big question is if the standard Sprgr 34 was the heavy payload type.

H.E. Projectile, Type 34, 75-mm

German Nomenclature: Spgr. Patr. KwK (34) (Sprenggranate Patrone Kampfwagenkanone 34).

EMPLOYMENT:

7.5-cm KwK 40 (Kampfwagenkanone 40) Tank Cannon 40.

7.5-cm Stu. G. 40 (Sturm Geschutz 40) Assault Gun 40.

7.5-cm Pak 40 (Panzerabwehakanone 40) Anti-tank Cannon 40.

7.5-cm Geb. G. 36 (Gebirgs Geschutz 36) Mountain Gun 36.

7.5-cm L. G. 40 (Leuchtes Geshutz 40) Recoilless Gun for Airborne 'l'roops.

7.5-cm L. F. K. 18 (Leuchtes Field Kanone 18) Light Field Cannon 18.

COMPLETE ROUND:

Description of c/r is for KwK (Stu. G.)

13.5 inches over-all length w/fuze.

11.6 inches, over-all length w/o fuze.

2.187 inches, distance from base to band.

0.7 inch, width of bimetallic rotating band.

2.5 inches, diameter of base.

12.6 pounds, total weight.

30.0 ounces, amatol 40/60 bursting charge plus smoke box of red phosphorus (TNT/Amatol 90/10 when used for Geb; G. 36) Zdlz. C/98 booster.

CARTRIDGE CASE (German nomenclature, 6354 or 6354 St.) (fixed):

9.56 inches, over-all length.

2.93 inches, diameter of neck.

3.01 inches, diameter of shoulder.

3.60 inches, diameter of base.

12.25 ounces, tubular nitrocellulose propellant.

C/22 31 grain electric primer.

FUZE: Nose percussion fuze Fl Az 23.

PACKAGING: Two rounds to a metal container

46.64 pounds.

TO39B-1A-10

And just so you’re not confused, this wasn’t FLAK therefore the projectile color was -- now say it with me -- green.

Now lets touch on this latest German Ordnance question of yours:

“USER SAID: It seems that the germans had multiple HE types for the L24, L43 and L48 family of tank (KWK) and assault guns (StuK). The big question is if the standard Sprgr 34 was the heavy payload type.”

This statement seems quite contrary to your previous stance on a recent thread regarding all German 75mm spgr projectiles being identical. And something to the effect that the only contrast was that different cartridge cases were being crimped onto the the same shell. I am curious as to why the change in heart?

Now I can give you the answer to this rather simple question, but I suspect it maybe a tad confusing for you. The question was, after all, answered several times for you on a previous thread. I think perhaps we should work on your colors a little longer before we push onto to any new, more challenging, German Ordnance topics.

[ 06-02-2001: Message edited by: Matthew_Ridgeway ]

[Username]

Heres a website that many people here, including myself, have remarked upon. It clearly shows that there are multiple HE type rounds for for these weapons. To be absolutely clear for the easily confused; multiple HE for even the same gun. I.e. different sized HE shells (that were green) on the same cartridge , for the same gun. Maybe I should draw a picture and a map (4 color) to remove any doubt from Mr Rolly_eyes?

It sure is interesting to compare these numbers to other payloads from other 75mm weapons.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/willphelps/Specs-03.htm

Mr _Ridgeway

I really dont care what you think you recall or other confusions on your part. In fact, I really dont care a damn about what you think you have to say. Maybe you can do a search and maybe you can go do something else; I really dont care. You seem to like to change your mind and maybe your equations.

yellow was = HE

but now the new math..

yellow=flak

Fine. Whatever. Dont give a damn but thanks anyway. Maybe you can direct your conversation "to the group". But maybe not to me? I am sure I am not the first to kindly ask you to get lost in your life?

Thanks and good luck

Lewis

[Username]

Its just so purty..wonder what the blast would be like for the driver? Maybe he should raise the windshield?

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/3515/251/251-88.jpg

[ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: Username ]

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

Its just so purty..

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/3515/251/251-88.jpg

[ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: Username ]

[ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: Username ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That link appears not to work unless you copy paste the URL. I gather thats a Pak 43?

[Matthew_Ridgeway]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

Its just so purty..wonder what the blast would be like for the driver? Maybe he should raise the windshield?

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/3515/251/251-88.jpg

[ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: Username ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wanna try the picture link again. One more edit...this time try to get it right. I love your knee-jerk replys. Good luck with deep-linking to Yahoo

[SenorBeef]

You folks generally seem to be pretty knowledgable.. and I just came across an oddity:

Hetzer is listed as having a 75mm 792M/S gun, with 141mm penetration at 100 meters, 0 slope.

To my knowledge, the hetzer has the 75/L48.

The panzer 4 (any variety in the game) also has an l48 to my knowledge, but is listed with a 750M/S MV, and 131 mm of penetration.

Marder and jpz4 have 792 also.

Stug III has 770 M/S, and 136mm penetration, but to my memory, it called a 75/46, so variations are expected.

But the hetzer had the panzer 4 had the same guns, right? Why the differneces in velocity?

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SenorBeef:

But the hetzer had the panzer 4 had the same guns, right? Why the differneces in velocity?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a guess, but its probably the muzzle brake. The Hetzer didn't have one, StuG, Pz IV came in both variants while having the brake was the rule.

The CMBO models don't seem to reflect that, though, i.e. the Marders, Jagdpanzer IV and PaK40 have a models with brake, but data is for 792 m/s. The Hetzer didn't have one in reality and its model doesn't have one as well. That may be a oversimplification/standardisation of gun graphics.

In any case, photos of Pak40 show a brake, although that has the higher speed in CMBO.

[ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matthew_Ridgeway:

I love your knee-jerk replys. Good luck with deep-linking to Yahoo <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have all the charm of a stalker. Anyone ever tell you that?

The real Matthew Ridgeway was described as one of the bravest men to ever serve his country. Whoever you are, could you summon up the character and just go bother someone else? Nothing personal. Just bother someone else. I aint ya buddy.

Thanks

Lewis

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by redwolf:

Just a guess, but its probably the muzzle brake. The Hetzer didn't have one, StuG, Pz IV came in both variants while having the brake was the rule.

The CMBO models don't seem to reflect that, though, i.e. the Marders, Jagdpanzer IV and PaK40 have a models with brake, but data is for 792 m/s. The Hetzer didn't have one in reality and its model doesn't have one as well. That may be a oversimplification/standardisation of gun graphics.

In any case, photos of Pak40 show a brake, although that has the higher speed in CMBO.

[ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The ammo for the StuK 40 and KWK 40 are the same. They are marked that way on the shell itself to signify the gun that the shell can be put in. I would expect the Pak39 to fire the same shell.

http://www.shadowsfolly.com/wwii/Germany/PenetrationTables.htm

I wouldnt expect a muzzle break to make that big a difference in MV. The main reason for a muzzle break is to reduce the space needed for recoil of the weapon into the vehicle. It also reduces the need for air/fluid cylinders to buffer the recoil. Perhaps thats what a PAK39 is; a L48 weapon with different recoil mechanisms?

The Marders usually had the german 75L46Pak40 (the antitank gun) which was a different gun than the Kwk40 and StuK40 and fired a different shell. Its shell was not tapered on the cartridge but rather like the 88 shell (yellow projectile) in the previous pics. The hetzers had the Pak39 which was almost the same as a PanzerIVL48 (KWK40) or most of the other L48s.

Lewis

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

please note that already very early in the war the germans even put the 8,8cm FlaK 38 onto the 12t and 18t tractor halftracks, together with an armored cabin, to create an ad-hoc armored vehicle mounting the important 8,8.

.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Germans also field modified 50L60 onto unarmored halftracks.

The 251/22 was a Hitler "brain-storm" and therefore got alot of priority. To me its a poor man's Marder. And in 1945, Marders were obsolete. The 251 does not have a great turning radius (this may have been offset by the guns decent traverse) but it really is just an overloaded vehicle with limited ammo. Perhaps if it were given priority of tungsten ammo (which had to be extremely rare in 1945), then it could bolster an AT defense by being a mobile heavy tank killer. Its job could be to sneak up on heavy tanks that have broken through and nail them and run.

The 234/4 armored car was about the same thing. It could drive in both directions (some models I believe) but it also had limited ammo. Its 8 wheeled steering would have been a bonus though. It could at least get in and out of trouble quickly.

In any case, theres no way a panther gun could have worked in an armored 251. The JagdpnzIV was overtaxed by this gun and the Hetzer was ruled out of carrying this. It would have definitely been a mistake in a 251 and the ammo would have been further restriced.

BTW, I am not making fun of modelers but that guy had some game rules he designed for miniatures.

Lewis

[Username]

Can anyone ID if there is a 75mm sherman round in this pic? I would assume the one to the left of the 17lbr APDS (tall one).

Lewis

[ 06-02-2001: Message edited by: Username ]

[Matthew_Ridgeway]

User Said: “Can anyone ID if there is a 75mm sherman round in this pic? I would assume the one to the left of the 17lbr APDS (tall one).”

I am curious why you feel no compunction regarding posting photos from other peoples web sites without crediting the web site.

Maybe if you took the time to read the title of the web page from which you grabbed this photo you could answer your own question i.e. WW2 TANK GUN AMMUNITION

Link to CANNON, MACHINE GUNS AND AMMUNITION: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/tankammo.html

and again from the same page:

From left to right: 3pdr (47x376mm), 2pdr (40x304mm), 6pdr APDS (57x441mm), 75mm (75x350mm), 17pdr APDS (76x583mm), 77mm (76x420mm), 3" Howitzer for close-support tanks (76x134mm), 95mm Howitzer for close-support tanks (95x206mm).

Photo link: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/webimgs/tankuk2.jpg

The British MkV and MkVA (these are “gun” models I’m referring to, just so your not confused) were the Vickers-Armstrong version of the US 75mm. The British General Staff in December of 42 was pushing the Ministry of Supply for a weapon like the US M2 and M3 dual purpose gun found on their newly acquired lend-lease Grant and Sherman Tanks. The American Dual purpose 75mm was quite popular with the British at this stage of the war due to the weapons excellent HE capability...ala the M48 round depicted in your picture. The British response was the MkV and MkVA which would be built to fit turret specs of the Churchill and eventually the Cromwell, but would fire standard American manufactured ammunition for the US M2 and M3.

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matthew_Ridgeway:

[QB]

I am curious why you feel no compunction regarding posting photos from other peoples web sites without crediting the web site.

Maybe if you took the time to read the title of the web page from which you grabbed this photo you could answer your own question i.e. WW2 TANK GUN AMMUNITION

QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did read it and there was only the description XXmm by YYmm. Being aware that there were other Brit 75/76/77ish types of shells about (brit weapons not being my strong suit); I thought that a knowledgable person could fill in more info. But instead you came along.

And I would be curious as to why you think you are the web police? Is there some compunction or malfunction or obsession that makes you think that I am to be singled out as such a web-crook (Go back to page 1 if you could you Bozo)? Maybe if someone with any savvy would look at the properties of an image, they could find where it is?

I will ask you once again to please bug off and not address me but rather just address the forum. I guess that request cant sink into your head. You obviously have mental issues and I would prefer that you try to find someone else to try to share them with.

So.

I ain't ya buddy. You aint my mother either so spare me your rules and expectations. I wish you well and hope your strange obsessions dont ruin what little life you have. Again you come off wierd but I bet it doesnt register. Its just your charming way isnt it?

Now tell us all about the British yellow shells formula. Everyone knows you are just plum full of info about them..

Lewis

[Matthew_Ridgeway]

User Said: “brit weapons not being my strong suit”

that’s an understatement. As to the rest of your mumbo-jumbo I guess I’ll post to whatever thread I feel the urge to post to.

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matthew_Ridgeway:

User Said: “brit weapons not being my strong suit”

that’s an understatement. As to the rest of your mumbo-jumbo I guess I’ll post to whatever thread I feel the urge to post to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. Thats my point. You have strange urges. Thanks for pointing that out.

I am fascinated that you feel that you can do whatever the "urges" tell you do, yet feel compelled to tell others what the proper etiquette is when posting jpgs.

There seems to be "rules" that you have to inform others about but maybe you can do whatever you like?

I dunno. Maybe you are sociopathic or maybe just boringly pathetic.

But I have no doubt that in your disconnected sense of reality that you think of yourself as some "heroic" wordster of the CM forum and that your legion of fans are awaiting your next post. You are the slayer of Username and that women are swooning over your exciting posts.

So tell us more about the yellow shells equations and make sure you use one of the yellow Instant Graemlins huh?

[ 06-02-2001: Message edited by: Username ]

[Matthew_Ridgeway]

Uhh User…calm down and please cease your pathetic whining. You asked a question on British Ordnance and I answered it for you. You always get this irate when someone answers one of your questions?

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matthew_Ridgeway:

You always get this irate when someone answers one of your questions? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You always get this annoying?

[Username]

I hate to break up this scintillating exchange but while researching Elephant info for the other thread I came across:

"The Tiger Tank" Ford

Claims Tigers fired electrically ignited ammo (as I have read) and that Army FLAK battalions changed their firing mechanisms to share the same ammo as the Tigers. This means that the typical shielded 88 Flaks in the armys dual-use had batteries, generators, etc issues.

So this also means that Luftwaffe 88mm L56 FLAK had seperate ammo than TigerI and Wermacht FLAK? I would guess that most home-guard 88 battalions only had stock piles of 88 "yellas" with time fuzes. But even army Flak batteries had to fire AA so..?

Anyway, this brings up an intrigung thought:

Could a Tiger I get a hold of AA time fuzed ammo from a Army FLAK battalion? This would certainly be nice to fire above the heads of infantry, gun crews and open topped vehicles..Depends on the "height" resolution also.

Also:

I found an interior shot of a Tiger I with at least 3 different colored shells (black, green, yellow).

Lewis

[offtaskagain]

What exactly is electric firing any ways? Is it using a motor to trip the firing pin, or actually running current through the powder?

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

What exactly is electric firing any ways? Is it using a motor to trip the firing pin, or actually running current through the powder?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The latter.

Instead of a firing pin hitting a cap a current is run through as you think. It has the advantage of instant firing when the trigger is yanked. It might even have hang-fire advantages in that hangs are less likely or can be cleared with another current surge by firing again.

Lewis