Scipio Posted November 18, 2001 Share Posted November 18, 2001 Maybe someone can explain this. Scenario with 1 large VL Situation at the end of a battle: Axis has 1 PSW234/1(Vet) 85m away from the VL and 1 Crew(Vet) 79m away the Allies 1 M4A3(Vet) 46m away from the VL In the end game result, the VL is declared as Axis, the result is a 51 Axis : 49 Allies draw. How can it be? I could understand if the VL is in dispute - but Axis??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graaf Spee Posted November 18, 2001 Share Posted November 18, 2001 Sounds strange. Maybe the M4 was out of ammo? It could also have something to do with LOS. Im not sure if that is used in the flag control calculation but that is a possibility. So if your M4 was behind a ridge and didnt have a clear LOS to the flag it could explain it. /Kristian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Murrin Posted November 18, 2001 Share Posted November 18, 2001 I've noticed this before too. The best explanation I've been able to come up with is that there seems to be three factors that determine control. 1. Distance. Maybe even as far as 100m if the other two factors permit is all that is needed to control a VL. Closer is always better but not always enough. 2. LOS. If you don't have it (to the VL), you have to be within 50m or so to vie for control. 3. Force. Last but not least, the side with the dominant force always seems to have the most powerful impact on control. It seems that having a much larger force is the predominant factor in VL control to the extent of vastly reducing the impact of the other two factors. They do however, work in concert. If you can maximise all three it seems to win VL's for you all the time. Hope I didn't just add to the confusion. Nathanael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted November 18, 2001 Author Share Posted November 18, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by von Murrin: Hope I didn't just add to the confusion. <hr></blockquote> It did The PSW was behind a wood and out of LOS, the Sherman in open and with direct LOS. Also, at the end of the battle the Axis had at all more casualties and a smaller force on the battlefield. All what saved them from a defeat is this occupied VL. About the distance of other forces: nothing that would explain why the VL is Axis. The result is so important, because it happens in a tourny I'm running. The Axis player will advance, the Allied not because of this result Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Murrin Posted November 18, 2001 Share Posted November 18, 2001 Grrrr... That's just plain weird. I've never had anything like that happen before. Maybe the best solution, if the players find it to be a point of contention, is to ask them to resolve it as they see fit. If that doesn't work, it looks like a re-match. I say this because there must be some mitigating factor that caused the VL to become/stay German, but the American player can say with valid cause that he won. Maybe this helps? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggDogg Posted November 18, 2001 Share Posted November 18, 2001 Scipio, I have had some (a very few) peculiar victory flag problems such as yours. It is frustrating. Actually, BTS (where are you Steve, MaddMatt?) may have a word or two on this. But you know what, maybe we should search the archives. Duh. Lol. :confused: :confused: I will do so later today. Cheers, Richard :cool: :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted November 18, 2001 Share Posted November 18, 2001 Edit - my mistake. Just did a test. I thought vehicles couldn't control VLs. Apparently they can. Perhaps I was confused with vehicle crews? [ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Svensson Posted November 18, 2001 Share Posted November 18, 2001 I experienced a similar VL surprise in a tournament game, and tried to get to the bottom of it. My conclusion was that LOS was immaterial, but that in some cases, elevation was critical. If both sides have units within 80 m of the VL, the units that are higher in elevation than opposing forces sometimes count at about five times their value in determining control of the VL. See Previous thread on subject I'm not entirely sure that elevation is the hidden factor, because sometimes it clearly doesn't influence VL control, but it sure does explain the weird results I've seen. I'd also love to hear from BTS on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted November 18, 2001 Share Posted November 18, 2001 edited [ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted November 18, 2001 Author Share Posted November 18, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Peter Svensson: My conclusion was that LOS was immaterial, but that in some cases, elevation was critical. If both sides have units within 80 m of the VL, the units that are higher in elevation than opposing forces sometimes count at about five times their value in determining control of the VL. I'm not entirely sure that elevation is the hidden factor, because sometimes it clearly doesn't influence VL control, but it sure does explain the weird results I've seen. I'd also love to hear from BTS on this.<hr></blockquote> The axis forces are indeed in slightly higher terrain - but the SPW is out of the 80m zone - so this would mean, ONE single crew man 79m away and a few meters above can beat a Sherman??? If so, then I would already call it a bug! This is absolutly unrealistic and unlogic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkut Posted November 18, 2001 Share Posted November 18, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Scipio: Maybe someone can explain this. Scenario with 1 large VL Situation at the end of a battle: Axis has 1 PSW234/1(Vet) 85m away from the VL and 1 Crew(Vet) 79m away the Allies 1 M4A3(Vet) 46m away from the VL In the end game result, the VL is declared as Axis, the result is a 51 Axis : 49 Allies draw. How can it be? I could understand if the VL is in dispute - but Axis???<hr></blockquote> I am assuming that you also go by the name of Tasker at warfareHQ? If so then I can shine some light on the problem. Before the last turn we played I suspected that you might try a rush for the flag. I reversed a PantherA(VET) back from it's ambush position to one closer to the flag. There was also A PzIV (Veteran) across the road from the PSW234/1 and therefore quite close to the VL Simply put there was more german armour in the vicinity of the VL than american. Still I do feel that it should have been based on kills acheived rather than points in the event of a draw. But that was the rule they decided on sorry Berkut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted November 18, 2001 Author Share Posted November 18, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Berkut: I am assuming that you also go by the name of Tasker at warfareHQ? If so then I can shine some light on the problem. Before the last turn we played I suspected that you might try a rush for the flag. I reversed a PantherA(VET) back from it's ambush position to one closer to the flag. There was also A PzIV (Veteran) across the road from the PSW234/1 and therefore quite close to the VL Simply put there was more german armour in the vicinity of the VL than american. Still I do feel that it should have been based on kills acheived rather than points in the event of a draw. But that was the rule they decided on sorry Berkut<hr></blockquote> Berkut, I refer to the battle, but I don't work for Tasker. This is a question that should be answered, cause it has influence on the most important aspect of the game: the victory. Anyway, those axis tanks you are talking about are more then 200m away from the VL, while another Allied tanks is only 160meter away. So I guess this doesn't clear the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Svensson Posted November 19, 2001 Share Posted November 19, 2001 Regarding those extra tanks - units more than 80 m away from a VL have no effect on control. I've tested this quite a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Svensson Posted November 19, 2001 Share Posted November 19, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Scipio: The axis forces are indeed in slightly higher terrain - but the SPW is out of the 80m zone - so this would mean, ONE single crew man 79m away and a few meters above can beat a Sherman??? If so, then I would already call it a bug! This is absolutly unrealistic and unlogic.<hr></blockquote> Aha! There's the elevation again. It really makes a huge difference, but only in some cases. In most cases, it makes no difference at all. I haven't figured out when it's important and when it isn't. And yes, I too think this is a bug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted November 19, 2001 Author Share Posted November 19, 2001 Maybe in cases when we have infantry on one side and vehicels only on the other side? Not that this would make something better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted November 19, 2001 Share Posted November 19, 2001 still curious about this one -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted November 19, 2001 Share Posted November 19, 2001 I don't know if 1.12 changed any of these,(I don't think so), but crews,sharpshooters ,routed ,broken and panicked units cannot control a VL. [ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Tanaka ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puff the Magic Dragon Posted November 20, 2001 Share Posted November 20, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Tanaka: I don't know if 1.12 changed any of this,(I don't think so), but crews,sharpshooters ,routed ,broken and panicked units cannot control a VL.<hr></blockquote> This is defenetly not correct for crews: they can control a VL. I often use them to occupy VLs in my backyard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted November 20, 2001 Share Posted November 20, 2001 I clearly remember, that in one of the earlier versions games(1.05 ?), having a crew on top of a flag and not control it (my adversary didn't have any one in that area). Right now, I don't know nothing about crews and flag control... as I don't use them for active roles in a battle (rear line defensive actions maybe) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted November 22, 2001 Author Share Posted November 22, 2001 Bumb The question is unanswered BTS, please respond!!! This is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splash Posted November 23, 2001 Share Posted November 23, 2001 Well as it's important and I can't think of anything maybe some musing might help. Who was the defender? Maybe it is nothing simplier than feet on the ground. I was complaining to Wild Bill about his Maastricht scenario -- basically I dominated the map but I could only pull one flag into question (25 turns seemed too short was my whine). The AI had 54 cs. 14 KIA with 2 tanks left (1 immobile) -- I lost a Stuart and a Greyhound 14 cs 4 KIA - I did not fully control the high ground (AI pillboxes intact but that was because I spent my time working in behind them -- final score 13 me 87 AI. The facts on the ground belied the score but.. What kind of crew -- maybe a mortar crew vs. a tank crew is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkut Posted November 23, 2001 Share Posted November 23, 2001 Scipio, this has just occured to me after giving it some thought. The battle was never played to it's conclusion, it was ended by a ceasefire. It maybe be possible that this would result in no change of a game score regardless if the VL was being contested during that last turn. any thoughts on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted November 23, 2001 Share Posted November 23, 2001 I might be wrong on this, but I think that each unit in CM has an "influence" zone assigned to it. A tank has a much bigger zone than, say, a crew. So a tank within some distance to a large VL flag might still exert some control over it, while a squad at the same distance might not. These distances also are different for small and large flags. I'm not 100% on this, but you shouldn't expect an "official" answer over thanksgiving, though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted November 23, 2001 Author Share Posted November 23, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Berkut: The battle was never played to it's conclusion, it was ended by a ceasefire. <hr></blockquote> I had the same idea, so I played the battle to end without moving any units. The result was the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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