Dratted Fireflies...

[von Khan]

Hello, I'm a relative newbie to the game but have completed quite a few operations against the AI.

I cant seem to understand the accuracy of the Sherman Firefly in this game. In the Villers Bocage operation, they frequently outshot my elite Tigers, thrice knocking them out on the first shots. Whereas, the Tigers seem to hit mostly with the second shot.

In quite a few other games, I had hull down Tigers shot away by first shot Fireflies ranging from distances of 300 to 700m. It seems that my Tigers cant even ambush these damn cat killers. OTOH, the Panthers perform admirably, getting 17 pdr shells ricocheting off them sometimes. They also seem to hit more often.

Is there something wrong with the game engine? I mean, werent Tigers reputed for excellent Zeiss optics?

[Sergei]

You're not the first one who has comen onto this forum with that question. I too learned that Tiger IE wasn't invincible in 1944 anymore, thanks to 17 pounder and 76mm guns, especially when they had Tungsten ammo.

300 to 700 metres is a short range for tanks, but CMBO doesn't model gun optics (like CMBB does) because they didn't have good sources back then, and because it was considered that the differences didn't matter that much in western Europe where average engagement ranges were short.

[von Khan]

Yes I was rather surprised as to what happened to Tiger Is that werent used properly. :eek:

But I still cant understand why those dratted Tiger drivers cant shoot straight, whereas their adversaries in Fireflies can. :confused:

I think I should take a picture of my face and post it next time I see an ambushing Tiger miss, a Firefly turrent turn, and blast it with shot # 1. :eek: :mad:

[Silvio Manuel]

von Khan,

There is one "magic" number to know when trying to figure which tanks are more accurate: MUZZLE VELOCITY!! The higher the M.V., the more accurate the gun, since optics are not modeled. So consider these M.V.s':

Sherman 619

Panzer IV 750

StuG 770

Tiger I **773**

Puma 850

Firefly **885*

Panther 925 (and Panzer IV-70A)

Tiger II 1018 (and Nashorn, PaK43, etc.)

So Tiger is easily out-shot by Fireflies. The Tiger I's flat armor is quite out-dated by June 1944, since the Firefly's 17pdr gun can kill it even without Tungsten, at common CM ranges.

[von Khan]

Aaaah... Time to buy some Panthers.

[Breakthrough]

The Firefly was the best Sherman variant in the Allied aresnal. Too bad they couldnt deploy whole battalions of them.

[HVAP]

It was rather cramped as they crammed the gun into the 75mm turret, a sherman with the 76mm turret with a 17lbr would be very potent, there were a few problems with the 17lbr though I think accuracy at range was one. Hopefully someone with more knowledge will happen along and provide real answers

[ March 18, 2003, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: HVAP ]

[Jack Carr]

Not only is there a problem with the accuracy of the Tiger I's main canon but there is also a problem with it's frontal vulnerability against small caliber guns, 37mm. As far as I am concerned, this is an inaccuracy in the game engine. I have posted many times before regarding this German AFV and it's vulnerability in this game. Some more senior forum members initially disputed my observations as being "whiney" - "Boo-Hoo he lost his Tiger". Over time, these same mebers have begun to agree with me on this issue.

If I could make some suggestions in using this tank it would be these.

1 - Don't put too much trust in the "invincibility" of your frontal armor against smaller less heavily armed tanks/guns never mind Firefly's. Many a time have I lost a Tiger to a Stuart reversing out at speed at distances of 500 meters ot less.

2 - Always assume it will take your Tiger gunner at least two shots probably three before they start hitting enemy targets. If you think that your elite, crack, veteran Tiger will not survive the encounter then don't engage until you can do so on your terms. Also assume that the Sherman variants will be hitting your Tiger with the first round and if not the first then definitely the second at ranges within 1000 meters.

3 - If you don't already have it, get CMBB and see what the Tiger I was really like. There are 76mm toting lend-lease Shermans and 37mm Stuarts in that game as well. They don't seem to fare as well in CMBB as they do in CMBO against Tiger I.

As always, this is my personal observation. It may be disputed and I can respect that but I have had the game, CMBO, for several years now and this has been my experience with Tiger I. I have learned to use this tank more effectively when keeping the above factors in mind.

Regardless of how the Tiger responds in CMBO I still hold the game to be one of the best on the market. Actually second best to CMBB's first place position.

Happy Hunting!

[CombinedArms]

The Firefly matches up extremely well against the Tiger. It's cheaper. The 17 pounder is a pure Tiger killer. And it's also faster. The trick, I think, is to try to identify the Fireflies and hunt them down with lesser tanks, if you have them--for example the PzIV or the Stug. Try to take out the Brit's 17 pounders with these, since their guns are quite effective against the Firefly--you don't need to risk your Tigers or Panthers. Then roll out the big cats to overmatch the Sherm75s.

The Brit Fireflies tend to come one per platoon, so in a historically based scenario, you only have one Firefly to kill for every four tanks. That makes the task of eliminating Fireflies managable. By contrast, when I have the Brits, I tend to try to keep my Fireflies in reserve and roll them out when the larger kitties appear.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by HVAP:

It was rather cramped as they crammed the gun into the 75mm turret, a sherman with the 76mm turret with a 17lbr would be very potent, there were a few problems with the 17lbr though I think accuracy at range was one. Hopefully someone with more knowledge will happen along and provide real answers

Mr. Picky would like to remind everyone that it's 17-pr or 17-pdr, but never, ever under any circumstances, is it correct to call the gun a "17lbr".

To make a mild correction to an earlier post, the 17-pdr was in fact a very inaccurate gun in the sense that it had a very high muzzle-pressure (to which it owed its high velocity) and thus its projectiles had quite a large angular dispersion. There were also, I believe, shot-seating problems with APDS. More conservsatively-designed guns, such as the US 75mm and 3-inch, had much lower angular dispersions.

However, the high velocity and corresponding flat trajectory mean that, against targets of any appreciable height, the probability of hit can remain high despite quite high dispersion. The flat trajectory also gives the gun relatively low sensitivity to errors in range estimation, which is particularly valuable for getting first-shot hits. In other words, an inaccurate gun with a flat trajectory can still have a high hit probability, and this is the case with the 17-pdr.

All the best,

John.

[von Khan]

Thanks for the advice guys. I've been going through AARs, forum archives, the excellent CMBO oracle. Sucking up as much stuff as I can.

I have 4 PBEMs currently going and have started to notice the mistakes I made, ie using light armor as recon, throwing in the mobile reserve without scouting, letting the armor out before knowing what he was sending, and learning to hate the usless offensive capability of Stugs...

Currently I have also started to play 3000 pt QB MEs against the AI and have tried to apply Ron and Jason's excellent OOBs + tactics. Instead of charging in with recon armor, I've started to rely on my inf to give my his tank locations so that I can reveal my kitties when the time comes. (Avid Axis fan).

I'm going to try a couple of morelarge MEs and assaults against the AI before I try large battles against a human opponent.

Just cant wait to try my learnt theories.

ps. I'd also like to add how much I've been kicking myself for being asleep the past two years. This game is awesome! I've applied the long series of CMMOS mods and thrid party addons, and everything looks gorgeous. Its amazing how you can dress your troops for battle, complete with unique divsional uniforms, emblems and vehicle camo. Makes it so historicalm I abslootely loove it!

[ March 20, 2003, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: von Khan ]

[Ron]

In addition to the aforementioned muzzle velocity, another factor making the Firefly a potent cat killer is target size. Both the Tiger and Panther are considerably larger than the Firefly, and consequently in CMBO, much easier to hit. This is readily apparent at longer ranges, 1000m or greater, and flies in the face of historical accounts. CMBB does a much better job at modelling long range gunnery, and the Tiger and Panther are truly to be feared at range.

After countless games I can't recall the Tiger being vulnerable to small caliber weapons as much of an issue, though I am sure it has happened. What I would keep in mind regards the Tiger and its potential enemies is its *lack* of accuracy at range and very slow turret traverse. You will need to identify potential threats, like the Firefly and Hellcat, early and engage them on your own, read favourable, terms and not assume you will have the advantage at range.

Good luck.

Ron