Abandoned & Knocked Out - who cares?

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

I wonder why this difference is made in normal matches. I know it matters in operations, but who cares in a scenario / QB?

Well, maybe it would be sensefull to make use of it, even in single battles.

How I understand this:

Knocked out = irreparable damaged

Abandoned = can be salvaged and repaired after the battle

Wouldn't it be sensefull to count abandoned equipment different?

CM doesn't care about the stratic situation outside of the battle, but IMO this could help to resolve the issue with fast bailing crews. I don't know and I won't discuss if bailing crews are modeled realistic. After all the discussions about this I have found, nobody else know it for sure.

But fact is, abandoned eqipment is not a total loss, and maybe it will be recovered after the battle.

My ideas : abandoned equipment is counted only with the half of the points.

Of course, there's no guarantee that someone will be really able to salvage and repair the stuff - but the chance exists, and as I said, CM doesn't care anyway about the stratic situation outside of the battle.

[Maastrictian]

An interesting idea. I think half points is a bit extreme. But IIRC it was something of standard practice to shoot vehicles until they burned, this might make that more common in CM games. Say 100% points for burning vehicles, 90% for knocked out, 80% for abandoned. This may skew game even more infavor of the attacker though.

--Chris

[jshandorf]

I have only played on Operation but one would think that an abandoned vehicle can be recoverd for the next battle of you control the area around it.

KO - doesn't mean a vehicle cannot be salvaged in real life just that it is gone for the operation.

Jeff

[Kingfish]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jshandorf:

I have only played on Operation but one would think that an abandoned vehicle can be recoverd for the next battle of you control the area around it.<hr></blockquote>

Not so in CM. I've killed vehicles that have penetrated my lines only to have them disappear during the night. In one battle I had two Brit para squads on either side of a dead Stug, yet in the next battle the thing was gone. One squad was close enough to spit on the Stug, so there was no way they could have gotten a recovery vehicle in there.

[jshandorf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kingfish:

Not so in CM. I've killed vehicles that have penetrated my lines only to have them disappear during the night. In one battle I had two Brit para squads on either side of a dead Stug, yet in the next battle the thing was gone. One squad was close enough to spit on the Stug, so there was no way they could have gotten a recovery vehicle in there.<hr></blockquote>

I think I know what you did wrong. You were using British troops. Gutless bastards.

Jeff

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jshandorf:

KO - doesn't mean a vehicle cannot be salvaged in real life just that it is gone for the operation.

Jeff<hr></blockquote>

Well, don't let us overcomplicate this issue .

I guess in game terms it would make sense to simple distinguish between KO = irreparable and Abandoned = reparable.

Is 50% to much? Maybe. But we should discuss the idea.

[ 11-02-2001: Message edited by: Puff the Magic Dragon ]</p>

[Michael Emrys]

I suspect that at a minimum you need three categories to adequately model what wasgoing on in the war.

• Burned. Irreparable. Full points. (Okay, I know some tanks that burned were salvaged and returned to service, but we have to draw a line somewhere and there's no sense making this too complicated.)
  
• Knocked out. Mission killed for the duration of the battle/operation/whatever but recoverable and repairable in a rear area shop. Say, 80% points
  
• Abandoned. No really major damage that can't be repaired by the crew in the field. 30% points.

Michael

[History Buff]

About that british paras and the stug, have you ever thought that your men took it away. It was common for wrecks of german vehicles to be towed away and smelted down for the raw metal content. Now a stug is a lot of metal for new churchils and bullets etc.

I place money on the table, and bet you that your opponent did not gain the stug back.

Plus wrecked vehicles in your deployment zone slows down your forces.

Just a thought

[Michael Emrys]

Additional to above post:

I wanted to sketch out my idea as simply as possible, but I acknowledge that there are genuine complicating factors that must be addressed. The first and perhaps most important is the question as to who retains control of the battlefield at the end of the fight. If a player has left otherwise salvagable vehicles on the battlefield, but no longer retains control of the battlefield, or the part of it on which his vehicles lie, it should be treated as if all those vehicles were totally destroyed and full points for their destruction given to his opponent.

Michael

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

...but I acknowledge that there are genuine complicating factors that must be addressed. The first and perhaps most important is the question as to who retains control of the battlefield at the end of the fight...<hr></blockquote>

This is indeed the biggest problem. IMO, the best would be to calculate the same control zones like at the end of an operation battle.

Outside of the own control zone, the equipment is counted as total loss. Inside of the own controlzone they're counted partially, depending on the grade of damage.

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Maastrictian:

An interesting idea. I think half points is a bit extreme. But IIRC it was something of standard practice to shoot vehicles until they burned, this might make that more common in CM games. Say 100% points for burning vehicles, 90% for knocked out, 80% for abandoned. This may skew game even more infavor of the attacker though.

--Chris<hr></blockquote>

The defender will simply have to use the "shoot 'till it burns" tactic.

[Scipio]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Shadow 1st Hussars:

The defender will simply have to use the "shoot 'till it burns" tactic.<hr></blockquote>

He will have to in CMBB anyway - AFAIK, with the full new Super-FOW on you can not be sure that a tank is killed until it burns