Point System

[Chad Harrison]

i think we have all wondered about this subject when we are playing a close game and "naturlich" we want to win it. i know the grogs of CM have killed this subject, but im going to dig it up so maybe i (and others im sure) can have my questions answered!

this is what i understand so far:

• the cost points for both sides are added up as a total pool of points, added onto this is the points for each flag (big ones worth 300, small ones worth 100). if the flags are not captured and held by one side, no points are given for it.
• each side starts with its total purchase points, and gives those points to the opponet when units are lost, or men taken out.
• if its in the game and waving your flag, its worth points. how many points each is worth is counted by how many points it costed (fraction of those points lost when individual men are taken out). crew of vehicles are worth EXTRA points if they are taken out after they leave their vehicle

okay thats what i know in a nutshell. now here are my questions:

• when my mortars run out of ammo, i will usually walk them off my edge of the map; same with crews from vehicles (i dont pull the mortar/crew scouts!). do i loose "points" because of that? are they still figured into my points? are they counted towards my opponetes points? because my thought has always been that they are safer off the edge of the world than hidingn in some woods.
• artillery spotters cost 100+ points. in a game recently, i found a SS 150mm OBA guy in some woods with my zook. i took him out with a squad that i sent up. how many points is that worth to me? do i get all 170+ points that he cost? or is it a fraction?
• along those same lines, if artillery observers are not worth their "cost" points, then it would be to your disadvantage to have them (with regards to points) because then you have a smaller point pool than your opponet (in a ME) and so you feel each loss a little more. so if they are not worth their cost, when they shoot their ammo, is that points being lost?

any other helpful hinters would also be appreciated! :confused:

[offtaskagain]

My knowledge is limited to the questions about FOs. All FOs are worth 20 points, regardless of ammo. Also, I wouldn't recommend retreating anything off the map unless you have an immediate threat approaching. It causes a drop in your global morale that can cause an auto-surrender.

[Panzer Leader]

If walkin' an FO off the map causes you an auto-surrender, you've got bigger problems, bub

[Chad Harrison]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

All FOs are worth 20 points, regardless of ammo.<hr></blockquote>

so a 88mm FO is worth the same as a 8" Naval Gun FO? if thats true, then by purchasing large amounts of artillery, then you have less "points" on the board than the other player if he bought little or no artillery (again assuming a ME). that would also affect your global moral then because you have less men, and so each loss is a little more meaningfull.

obviously if you play 5000 point ME, you laugh at those points. but i play mostly the 1000-2000 point range where a 200+ 105mm FO is about 10% of your points. that could make a change then on your global moral if he then becomes worth only 20 points.

[SurlyBen]

Each side starts with zero points. Points come from inflicting casualties on the enemy. (On a flagless map, if one side can manage to inflict a single casualty without taking one in return, that side will get a 100-0 total victory)

To answer your questions:

As far as I know walking crews off the map won't lower your score. It'll lower global morale, though.

Arty spotters are worth 30 points.

When spotters shoot their ammo, no points are lost.

Surlyben

[Redwolf]

The most complete thread is number 019346. It answers all these questions.

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=019346

[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]</p>

[Redwolf]

It is in fact worth considering how much your force is "worth" in "knockoutable points".

Imagine a 1000 points game and one force is buying much artillery.

The other force buys an infantry battalion with -what was it?- 10% discount. Let's say that many 81mm mortars are in this force, both from the battalion and bought alone.

In that case the artillery player may easily have 700 or less points for killing on map.

The other one will have 1100 knockoutable points after discount for his 1000-points force. But all the crew-served weapons also add their crew value on top of the cost. If there are 8 81mm mortars, that alone is 8 * 6 * 6 = 288 points extra, which sums up to 1388 points, almost twice as much as the other player. Spotters are also easier to protect from knockout.

I won't even start speaking of capturing or what happens on an autosurrender.

If you know you are facing a dangerous opponent and will likely fight for survivial with only a dim chance of winning, it is much more worthwhile to avoid certain purchase schemes, especially on-map mortars and thin SP guns with a big crew.

All this is made worse by the Quickbattle generator which -IMHO- places not enough flags on ME maps, knockout points become overwhelmingly important for final score. A partial solution is to make the battle shorter, 30 turns are only needed in attack/defense games. In MEs fewer turns make for a more furious battle and avoid much of the long-breathed slugfest that often follows the initial clash in Quickbattle MEs.

[Chad Harrison]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by redwolf:

The other one will have 1100 knockoutable points after discount for his 1000-points force. But all the crew-served weapons also add their crew value on top of the cost. If there are 8 81mm mortars, that alone is 8 * 6 * 6 = 288 points extra, which sums up to 1388 points, almost twice as much as the other player. Spotters are also easier to protect from knockout.

<hr></blockquote>

so if i hear you correctly, that gives the player with less "onboard points" the disadvantage because of his higher chances of global morale going down and having less points on his side. but do you get points for the men who are still alive on board? or is CM only concerned with whose dead?

if its only concerned with whose dead, and not whos still around, then the less points the better. this way the other side has a harder time getting more points because there is less to blow up.

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

so if i hear you correctly, that gives the player with less "onboard points" the disadvantage because of his higher chances of global morale going down and having less points on his side. <hr></blockquote>

Probably. The difference for morale is not as much as for victory points. Put getting your arty spotte killed in a "real" 1000 points force is probably more severage than the same thing happening to the 1100 points force in the battalion.

I didn't research morale computation, so I can't say exactly. Morale isn't only concerned with the health and on-map status of men, it also drops when you rcommand structure is disrupted.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>but do you get points for the men who are still alive on board? or is CM only concerned with whose dead?

if its only concerned with whose dead, and not whos still around, then the less points the better. this way the other side has a harder time getting more points because there is less to blow up.<hr></blockquote>

Exactly. Read the other thread, it has all the info.

On the other hand, Artillery doesn't win you the battle, so the exploit possibilities of this insight are limited.

[Redwolf]

Here is an example: Two forces of 2000 points buying points each, one force arriving at 3098 knockoutable points, one force at 1236.

The quickbattle generator places flags worth 600 points on a 2000 ME map.

Thus, if both forces wipe out 50% of each other, the 3098 points force may posses all flags and loose. 1549 : 618 + 600 points = 56%:44% = tactical victory for the force *not* owning the flags. Mind you that the "lethality value" of the forces is not that much different.

Axis:

-----

Security Battalion cost 1568, directly worth 1725 due to rebate of 10%.

However, there are crews in it, lots of them, 6x 81mm mortar + 2x 50mm AT gun

That are 6 * 6 * 6 + 2 * 5 * 6 = 276 points. On the other hand, there is one 81mm spotter in it, which is 41 points less worth than he costs.

Fill up the 2000 points with

- 5x 75mm infantry guns, cost 5 * 33 = 165 points, worth 5 * (33 + 6 * 6) = 345 points

- 3x Hummel, cost 240 points, worth 3 * (80 + 6 * 6) = 348 points

So the Axis force costs 1973 points, but is worth 1973 * 1.1 + 276 - 41 + 345 + 348 = 3098 points

On the other hand Allies:

- Spotter 240mm

- Spotter 4.2" mtr

- Sherman Crocodile

- 2x Pershing

- Pioneer Platoon

- 2x Rifle Platoon

- 2x .50cal MG

- Sharpshooter

- Roadblock

- 4x Barbed Wire

- 4x AT Mines

- 4x AP Mines

- 4x TRP

Cost: 1999 points

Corrections:

- Arty 528 - 60

- Crews 3 * 5 * 6

- Fortifications cannot be knocked out 205

1999 - 763 = 1236

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Redford,

I know it's not the point, but I don'give much chances to your Ami company with 3 big tanks vs a whole Sicherung Battalion :eek:

The 240 mm art should be the great equalizer, but yet it'll be hard for the allies !!

It's surprising haw the point system goes anyway :confused: - 2000 pts forces worth stg between 1400 and 3300 !

[Chad Harrison]

well it look like redwolf has well researched his homework

so it does pay off to have "less points" on the board in a way, and depending on the situation. yes you have less to work with, and a lower global morale leway, but if you take the same PERCENTAGE loss as the other point heavy team, your doing good.

thanks redwolf for the answer.

but still, does anyone know if you "lose" points for moving a KO guns crew off your side of the map? according to what redwolf said, that would lower your global morale level, but it would also give less points for the OPFOR to take out. answers?

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

but still, does anyone know if you "lose" points for moving a KO guns crew off your side of the map? according to what redwolf said, that would lower your global morale level, but it would also give less points for the OPFOR to take out. answers?<hr></blockquote>

You can move any of your units off any side of the map with no loss of points. You loose morale, as you say.

Prisoners on the other hand must be moved off the *friendly* edge of the map to keep the points, otherwise they count as if they were freed, i.e. don't count for anyone as if the owner moved them off.