MG area fire in CM2

[KiwiJoe]

I think the major problem with the current modeling of MGs is they only fire at 1 squad at a time. From what I've seen/read/understand the MG's true strength lies in its ability to deney infantry movement to fairly large amounts of land. If any infantry don't show respect for siad MG and are brave enough to run around in front of it they will no doubt get reasonably cut up.

Thus I think MGs in CM2 should be able to area target, as they can in CM, but with 1 major difference. The area target would have a 30-50 metre circle around it (like a TRP). Any and ALL infantry squads entering that cirlce would be subject to the MGs firepower at the same time, as if each was being directly targeted. This would in effect model the MG crew spraying an area 30-50 metres wide with multple bursts of fire. Perhaps the firepower rating of the MG would be slightly lowered in area target mode to account for the inaccurate nature of spray fire... but all squads in the area would be subject to supression from the MG AT THE SAME TIME WITH EACH AND EVERY BURST.

Thats my idea to solve the issue... what do YOU think?

[SenorBeef]

Originally posted by KiwiJoe:

I think the major problem with the current modeling of MGs is they only fire at 1 squad at a time. From what I've seen/read/understand the MG's true strength lies in its ability to deney infantry movement to fairly large amounts of land. If any infantry don't show respect for siad MG and are brave enough to run around in front of it they will no doubt get reasonably cut up.

Thus I think MGs in CM2 should be able to area target, as they can in CM, but with 1 major difference. The area target would have a 30-50 metre circle around it (like a TRP). Any and ALL infantry squads entering that cirlce would be subject to the MGs firepower at the same time, as if each was being directly targeted. This would in effect model the MG crew spraying an area 30-50 metres wide with multple bursts of fire. Perhaps the firepower rating of the MG would be slightly lowered in area target mode to account for the inaccurate nature of spray fire... but all squads in the area would be subject to supression from the MG AT THE SAME TIME WITH EACH AND EVERY BURST.

Thats my idea to solve the issue... what do YOU think?

Sounds like a reasonable way to simulate beaten zones to me, although we need a way to simulate final protective fires and fire lanes and such from MGs. But this (as an option) would improve the flexibilities of MGs, and show what seperated MGs from regular squads (which are currently more or less the same as MGs with lower ranged firepower).

[Gyrene]

That system of area fire would be more realistic if used on a defending side only to simulate the defenders having had the time to set up areas of fire and limiting stakes, etc. On the assault I'd expect Machine Gunners to get "Tunnel Vision" like anybody else, but I do find it kind of silly how a unit will continue to area fire even when a enemy unit stumbles into its direct LOS. Maybe it has something to do with discipline (Your orders were to cover that area, not take potshots at fleeing enemies!)

A sort of "Area Fire Till Contact" sort of command would be nice.

[Juardis]

I like it. But remember, the target is one squad of multiple men. So in effect, a MG team in CM is practicing a limited amount of area fire. But I too long for a true suppressive capability. Hedgrow fighting or city fighting come to mind. Where you have no idea if the enemy is there, but you want to suppress anything that might be there. Area targetting a building would succeed in keeping the enemy away from the windows perhaps. Area targetting a hedgerow would succeed in suppressing some units along the length of the hedgerow. But once a target does show up, stop the area fire and go to direct fire.

Another way to model what you're saying is to allow a MG team to break lock and retarget when direct firing as fast as possible to simulate area fire. The only question then would be, what criteria is used to determine when to break lock and retarget? Is it distance (shoot at closest units only)? Is it making the enemy change course (once they stop their original movement, retarget)?

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Jeff Abbott

[KiwiJoe]

Well if not on defense you could just reduce the cirlce... say 25m.

[KiwiJoe]

Juardis your right... a squad is 7-13 men plus there is grazing fire modeled. But I don't think MGs current provide the supression of multiple men over a reasonable sized area that they should. Its quite common to have a whole platoon run into los of a MG nest and only have 1 squad targeted and surpressed/take hits whilst the others keep running totally unaware of whats happening.

[Bluefish]

Brilliant.

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"C'mon you son's of bitches, do you want to live forever?"

Gysgt Dan Daly USMC

Belleau Wood, France 1918

[Mlapanzer]

you CAN area fire on a building or section of hedgerows with MG and Infantry squads now.I do It all the time when using fire and movement. I'll area fire on a building or patch of woods I am moving a unit into to suppress any units that might be there. It can be very effective or it can just waiste alot of ammo. I have also found that MG's will most deffinately switch targets when the unit it is firing on goes to ground thus suppressing multiple units in a turn.

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"PHHHFFFFFFT" Bill the Cat

[KiwiJoe]

I know you can area fire now... but its nothing like what I'm suggesting for CM2. Current area fire with mgs is mostly a waste of time I find. Maybe others have different views on that.

[Juardis]

Originally posted by Mlapanzer:

It can be very effective or it can just waiste alot of ammo.

Graphically, it looks like the MG team is firing at a point. Are you saying it is spraying over the frontage of one tile (20m)? That has not been my experience. But even if it were, what if there were 2-3 woods tiles in a row. A MG team should be able to suppress 40-60m of woods frontage shouldn't it? But it can't with the current modeling.

[KiwiJoe]

Yeah I find that if the area target isnt almost directly on a squad then it will surpress nothing. At the very least if you area target a building it should surpress all those in it.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by KiwiJoe:

Yeah I find that if the area target isnt almost directly on a squad then it will surpress nothing. At the very least if you area target a building it should surpress all those in it.

I don't think it ought to supress every trooper in the whole house, maybe just the same percentage that fire would supress those in front.

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

Keep in mind that it takes a lot more ammo to suppress (for lack of a better word) an area target for a turn because you're not firing at one point in the area, you're firing at the whole area, with enough ammunition to suppress anyone who might conceivably be in the area...and then you're doing it again and again until the end of the turn.

Maybe this really happened, but I don't recall ever reading about any machine gun crews who kept firing blindly for a long time into a certain area just to try and suppress any squads that might be there.

I have read accounts of suppression fire into a patch of woods just preceding an assault on the woods by infantry, and I've seen accounts of firing a lot of ammo into areas where enemy units were briefly spotted...but that's a lot different from generic area fire, IMO.

[Mlapanzer]

well I don't know what your looking for but I think MG's as modeled in CM are more effective than any I have seen in any other game. IMHO they work very well in the roll they were intended. As Andew stated it would be very unlikely for an MG to just saturate an area with fire without a seen or at least percieved threat. Just having an MG overwatch an area of woods without a designated target will have the desired and I believe appropriate effect.I for one am more than happy when a MG takes a squad out of the action for a turn. Then when your next turn comes around you can always designate another target you percieve to be more of a threat. rememebr a turn is ONLY 1 minute. If your getting overun by then you probably set un in a bad position.

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"PHHHFFFFFT" Bill the Cat