Need some aid on US Army Org small units

[Dandelion]

The finer details of US Army organisations eludes me. Specifically, I would very much appreciate answers to the following questions:

1 What does the term "NMI" mean when used as suffix to the rank of an NCO?

2 What does ASN mean? Used as suffix also, all ranks apparently.

3 Apart from using Staff Sergeants - a function not present in most European armies and difficult enough to understand - Staff Sergeants in the Army (at least the regular divisions) were apparently divided into "Guides" and "Leaders". What does that mean?

4 The two designateed platoon scouts of infantry platoons, were they part of the squads or part of the platoon hq?

5 The US Army used the pair of CO and Exec officer, at least at Coy, Bn and Rgt level. All armies used CO and assistant CO of some kind. I just don't get the titles. What does it mean - Exec? Normally, the CO would be the executing echelon of orders in a unit.

6 What is the "Regimental S1"?

7 What does CCC mean (i.e. the organisation - not variants of the term C3I)?

8 Can it be confirmed or denied that a US Army infantry squad (discounting special forces of all kinds) contained twelve men, of which at least one (probably two) a corporal, plus one sergeant as squad leader? And that four such squads made up the platoon (semi-divided in two sections?), to which one must add two staff segreants (one "guide" and one "leader") of which only one was actually called "platoon sergeant" (which one? why?). That three such platoons plus a fourth heavy weapons platoon made up a company, to which one must add Coy Hq with CO, Exec, Mess sqd of three plus Mess Sgt, three forward clerks/signallers plus a company clerk who served at Rgt HQ, and a supply Sgt who also served at Rgt HQ, plus the all-important company First Sgt?

9 Speaking of which - which were the specific duties of the Coy First Sgt?

10 What was the meaning of the distinction Pvt and Pfc that was used?

11 Some US units - I speak now exclusively of infantry divisions - appear to be geographically homogenous, with the men (i.e. enlisted men) coming from a very specific area in the US. Others have men from all over that huge nation, from NY to California, Chicago to Texas. How come?

12 The mortar "section" of an infantry company, contained how many squads (assuming a squad had one 60mm mortar)? Did the heavy weapons platoon have their own Pltn Sgt? Guide?

Some equipment questions:

1B What is the full meaning of the abbreviation PX?

2B What is a Klaxon?

3B Is there anywhere one can find a comprehensive list of the alphabetically "coded" rations used by the US Army in WWII (you know, like C rations etc)?

US Army WWII slang questions:

1C "Cornball"?

2C "Class of 28er"?

3C "Hep"?

4C "Hick"?

5C "Section 8"?

6C Reading US Pacific material, I find that both officers and EM use the term "chap" every now and then. Sounding irrevocably British to me, I was wondering if this is a misconception, and this term might in fact once have been everybit as much a US term. Or if it wasnt ever, and the men were simply making fun of/being influenced by long-term contact with British and commonwealth troops/society at this front?

In hope of finding just the right know-it-all when you need him

Dandelion

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

The finer details of US Army organisations eludes me. Specifically, I would very much appreciate answers to the following questions:

Blimey. I'll have a go at the ones I'm reasonably confident of:

[snips]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

4 The two designateed platoon scouts of infantry platoons, were they part of the squads or part of the platoon hq?

Part of the squad. If the "Able-Baker-Charlie" squad organisation is used, the scouts are the members of Able team. Baker team has the BAR and provides the base of fire, Charlie team is all riflemen and provides the assault element.

Originally posted by Dandelion:

5 The US Army used the pair of CO and Exec officer, at least at Coy, Bn and Rgt level. All armies used CO and assistant CO of some kind. I just don't get the titles. What does it mean - Exec? Normally, the CO would be the executing echelon of orders in a unit.

The commander carries the formal authority, but at any level of command above the most junior, one man is quite incapable of fighting the command single-handed. There needs to be somebody who can take charge of the main HQ and conduct planning while the Big Man is off doing his personal recce, attending an orders group, sniffing the battle from his tac HQ, or roving away from HQ to conduct "hat-waving" forward command. This chap needs full executive authoirty in the commander's name to be able to do this job. My own acquaintance with all this is specifically British, but I imagine that armies do not differ enormously in the basic pattern of how their HQs work, and it is increasingly common in the British Army to call the 2-i-c the "exec".

Originally posted by Dandelion:

7 What does CCC mean (i.e. the organisation - not variants of the term C3I)?

If the context is the components of an Armored Division, it is "Combat Command C", which might alternatively be called "Combat Command Reserve" (CCR).

Originally posted by Dandelion:

8 Can it be confirmed or denied that a US Army infantry squad (discounting special forces of all kinds) contained twelve men, of which at least one (probably two) a corporal, plus one sergeant as squad leader? And that four such squads made up the platoon (semi-divided in two sections?),

That sounds like an old-fashioned organisation to me. By the time period represented in CM:BO, US platoons were triangular, as shown in the game.

Originally posted by Dandelion:

2B What is a Klaxon?

Oh dear. "Klaxon" is the only word I can think of for it. The Shorter Oxford Dictionary defines it as "an electric motor horn". A machine for making BWAA BWAA noises.

Originally posted by Dandelion:

3B Is there anywhere one can find a comprehensive list of the alphabetically "coded" rations used by the US Army in WWII (you know, like C rations etc)?

Forty's "US Army Handbook" lists only 5 basic types, roughly as follows:

A: Similar to garrison ration, 70% fresh food.

B: As A but with non-perishable items substituted for fresh ones.

C: Developed to replace the WW1 reserve ration, and consisting mainly of tinned food combinations in one of 10 options:

Meat and beans

Meat and vegetable stew

Meat and spaghetti

Ham, eggs and potatoes

Meat and noodles

Meat and rice

Frankfurters and beans

Pork and beans

Ham and lima beans

Chicken and vegtables

It also included jam, crackers and other goodies.

D: A replacement for the WW1 iron ration, consisting of a 4-ounce highly concentrated chocolate bar contaning cocoa, oat flour and skimmed milk powder.

K: Originally for airborne troops, packed in 6.5in long waterproof cardboard boxes marked breakfast, dinner or supper. Breakfast was a fruit bar, Nescafe, sugar, crackers and a small tin of ham and eggs; dinner and supper were a can of cheese or potted meat, crackers, orange or lemon powder, sugar, chocolate or sweets and chewing-gum.

I'm sorry that still leaves lots of questions unanswerd, but it's a start...

All the best,

John.

[Michael Dorosh]

2 What does ASN mean? Used as suffix also, all ranks apparently.

Army Serial Number - a unique identifier issued to each soldier. Like a social insurance number in civilian life.

In the Commonwealth it was called a Service Number or Regimental Number, and a Serial Number referred to a number given to each unit as it was mobilized.

5 The US Army used the pair of CO and Exec officer, at least at Coy, Bn and Rgt level. All armies used CO and assistant CO of some kind. I just don't get the titles. What does it mean - Exec? Normally, the CO would be the executing echelon of orders in a unit.

Exec means 'executive' - in the Commonwealth, this was called 2 i/c (for second in command).

10 What was the meaning of the distinction Pvt and Pfc that was used?

A Private First Class was a promotion and pay grade higher than a Private.

Some equipment questions:

1B What is the full meaning of the abbreviation PX?

Post Exchange - like a retail store on an Army base.

The Army issued out (or sold through unit canteens) "PX rations" - I think this referred to candy bars and the like which weren't part of the normal daily ration, but were an extra or "treat"???

This raises the question of what a canteen was; in most armies, a water bottle was called a water bottle, with a "canteen" being a serviceman's club or a small store set up at the company/battery/squadron level, to sell treats and other "PX items" to the troops - stuff like shoe polish, shaving cream, razor blades, writing utensils, etc. - stuff the army didn't necessarily issue.

[ March 07, 2003, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Gordo]

Executive Officer (XO. Makes him the right hand man of CO. Ususally stuck with admin work. 2nd highest ranking officer in the company hierarchy.

"6 What is the "Regimental S1"?"

Regimental staff slot responsible for Admin of the regt

"US Army WWII slang questions:

5C "Section 8"?"

Military discharge due to insanity

[Philippe]

In current American dialect, the word "hick" usually means "country bumkin", or something equivalent. Not sure if it had a different meaning fifty years ago.

Should we add this word to the list of differences between English and American, along with boot, torch, and lorry ?

[Allan Wotherspoon]

NMI means No Middle Initial, that is someone without a middle name.

[John D Salt]

Sorry, I missed these in my first pass...

Originally posted by Dandelion:

11 Some US units - I speak now exclusively of infantry divisions - appear to be geographically homogenous, with the men (i.e. enlisted men) coming from a very specific area in the US. Others have men from all over that huge nation, from NY to California, Chicago to Texas. How come?

I would suspect that this is because National Guard divisions naturally recruit from their own state.

Originally posted by Dandelion:

12 The mortar "section" of an infantry company, contained how many squads (assuming a squad had one 60mm mortar)?

Three (according to the wiring diagrams in Forty's "Handbook", which are supposed to be good from 1943 on).

All the best,

John.

[Michael Dorosh]

A Company First Sergeant is likened to the Company Sergeant Major in the Commonwealth as well as der Hauptfeldwebel in the German Army.

His duties in the CW and German Armies I can talk about, I assume it was the same as in the US Army.

Basically, he is the highest ranking sergeant in the company. He is responsible for discipline, administration (along with the company clerk), and in action handles the flow of ammunition and food forward (along with the company quartermaster/supply sergeant) and the flow of prisoners to the rear.

I am a company clerk in an infantry company and work closely with my CSM to keep an up to date order of battle - in action, this would include keeping the tracking of casualties and replacements.

In action, the 1SGT or CSM would also need to be ready to take over leadership of a platoon if necessary (we see Lipton do this in Band of Brothers).

[YankeeDog]

The language questions I can help out with a bit:

1C: Cornball: Slang for someone or something that is unophisticated or mawkish. Still used to a certain extent some areas of the US today, but much more common in the 30s and 40s. (ex: Everyone groaned at his cornball sense of humor.)

2C: Class of 28er: Dunno. A quick look through my slang dictionaries turned up nothing.

3C: Hep: Cool or on the cutting edge of style and/or fashion. Very common in the 30s and 40s Swing culture. Interestingly, at some point in the fifties, "Hep" transformed into "Hip", which is still in common use today with basically the same meaning.

4C: Hick: As already mentioned, someone who is unsophisticated or lacking in manners and style. This one goes all the way back to the 19th century at least, and is still in common use today in America.

5C: Section 8: A "Section 8 Discharge" was a discharge from military service for psychological unfitness, so to say someone "Was a Section 8er", or "Went Section 8" meant that they were nuts, or had gone nuts. This slang was definitely in use in WWII, but I don't know when/how it got started.

6C: Chap: Much more common in American English from the first part of the 20th century, both spoken and written. Since the use of "Chap" was quite common usage before the US ever entered WWII, I don't think it's popularity was especially due to British infuence. Alliance and contact with the Brits may have intensified it's usage somewhat during the war, though.

With the exception of "Section 8" the above definitions are more general slang usage than specifically military in nature, and the words may have additional military slang meanings that I am unaware of. If so, and somebody knows about these definitions, I'd love to hear them. . .

Cheers,

YD

[Dook]

To elaborate briefly on question 11. The National Guard provided 19 infantry divisions during World War II, numbered consecutively beginning with the 26th and going up to the 45th. Guard divisions were recruited geographically, with a few exceptions - the Americal Division and the Rainbow Division (42 ID).

[Dandelion]

It is absolutely stunning what amounts of information one can gather here in short time. Thank you all. I will keep checking the thread as some questions remain unanswered. Meanwhile, I have som follow-up questions if you will bare with me.

Here goes:

1D Concerning the rations, which variant would be the one they called "Spam"? Even the officers seemed to hate Spam.

2D Concerning the Pvt-Pfc, did the promotion to Pfc bring about other advantages than increased pay? I am thinking about the German system of "Gefreiter", usually translated to "Corporal" but literally meaning "liberated". Liberation is from manual labour. I believe the term "corporal" has the same heritage. Was the Pfc anything like this? Or was it more like the "Oberschütze" german rating. This title you earned after "completing training" (i.e. after a certain time of service). It didnt really mean a lot except you got a patch on the arm and slightly higher status, and you had to take poart in the training of recruits.

3D The 1st Sgt. He is comparable then to the "Spiess"? (Senior coy NCO in Heer)

4D Let me see if I got this: National Guard units were recruited geographically, and there were 19 of them. And as I understand it there were 5 professional divisioins to start with. This means that for the other forty-or-so, one could live in, say, NY and yet be called up to a division located in, say, California, and there do service with soldiers from all over the US?

5D Company clerk - this is very interesting. There appears to have been three types of clerks in the US Inf Coy Hq WWII, is this structure familiar? - Coy Clerk, Forward Clerk and Assistant Clerk. The Coy clerk seems to be a Sgt, in effect serving at Rgt Hq aloing withther Supply Sgt. The Forward Clerk seemed the boss-clerk and at his disposal he apperas to have had at least two assistant clerks. They appear to have been used as signallers in combat - or more specifically, runners. This make any sense? And these men, were they permanently clerks or were they on rotating service from ordinary rifle squads?

6D And finally - 2.5% interest rate?!?! Give me the phonenumber to that bank right away!

About the slang: I was, among other sources, reading "The letters home", a compilation of letters from US soldiers serving in the Pacific in 42-43. This is part of a book series with just such letters from all kinds of wars. Anyway, much of the slang that puzzled me came from here. A soldier from NY (Queens, it appears) complains very bitterly that he was forced to serve with "Hicks". Nobody in his unit was "like him". A soldier from Philadelphia kept calling his fellow servicemen "hep" or not "hep". A SSgt complains that his new CO is a "Montana Cornball". This S/Sgt was as I understand it from Virginia someplace. Another S/Sgt, serving in what appears to be an all-Texas division, makes jokes about an officer who is not a southerner, but a "class of 28er" and kept saying "hunh?" because he was unable to understand the Texas dialect spoken by everyone else.

Dandelion

So far with no sig...

[lcm1947]

Lets see if I can add something. Your questions;

1D. Spam is a meat product. It is still available today by the way but most people don't seem to like it but they're still making it so I guess somebody does. It is cheap and kind of like ham and fat rolled up into a square chuck placed in a can. It is best fried at least in my opinion and not too bad with eggs or as a sandwich with mayo.

2D. Sounds like more along the lines of the Oberschutze. You got it for just suiting up.

3D. I don't know what a spiess is but what Michael said is true in regards to a 1st sergeant.

4D. Boy this is a long story but I'll cut it down. At first the National Guards were called up but after that due to the amount of soldiers that were needed and all the guards were already over there it was necessary to just get men over into the war. Nobody liked it and while it was a poor system the powers to be allowed it to be that way in order to get the maxium guys into the war in the fastest manner. Hell, they weren't even trained except for maybe 2 weeks if that at all. They were combat trained. Not a good system at all but it seems to have worked.

[Gordo]

Spam is pretty bad. Tastes ok if you can fry it with brown sugar and some mustard. If you can't doctor it a bit then it would be really bad plain.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

[QB] 2D Concerning the Pvt-Pfc, did the promotion to Pfc bring about other advantages than increased pay? I am thinking about the German system of "Gefreiter", usually translated to "Corporal" but literally meaning "liberated". Liberation is from manual labour. I believe the term "corporal" has the same heritage. Was the Pfc anything like this? Or was it more like the "Oberschütze" german rating. This title you earned after "completing training" (i.e. after a certain time of service). It didnt really mean a lot except you got a patch on the arm and slightly higher status, and you had to take poart in the training of recruits.

I was under the impression that Gefreiter and Obergefreiter were also simply pay raises. Those ranks do NOT translate as "corporal" as they were NOT NCOs in any sense of the word.

Oberschutze was granted after completing training, but the time needed for Oberschutze was less than that required for Gefreiter. Basically, if you were a dud who showed no promise as an NCO, you were made Oberschutze, otherwise, you went to Gefreiter straight away. My understanding, anyway.

3D The 1st Sgt. He is comparable then to the "Spiess"? (Senior coy NCO in Heer)

Der Hauptfeldwebel was the correct term, der Spiess was a slang term for this position. It means "the Spear" and refers to a time when German NCOs were armed with short swords, IIRC. They were also called die Mutter der Kompanie (Company Mother). All titles referring to the same thing, so you are correct. In the SS I believe he was known as SS-Stabscharfuhrer.

[Dandelion]

Comment on Gefreiter:

No, it was not an NCO rank, but nor are all corporals. I forgot that the Lance-Corporal was not present in US armies in WWII In my opinion, the Gefreiter closely resembles the lance corporal.

My grandfather served in the war and progressed from Schütze to, eventually, Major. He wrote a letter to my grandma upon becoming Gefreiter in 38. The liberation from manual labor simply ment no potato-peeling or WC cleaning for him anymore. The man was quite delighted. It says nothing about Oberschütze though. Your interpretation makes sense. The Gefreiter might simply be the EM who had expressed interest in or shown aptitude for further training. In contrast to the Oberschütze.

Comment on Spiess:

I thought the Spiess was thus nicked because of the Halberds they used to carry, to keep men in line, under Fredrick the Great.

A difference here is that while 1st Sgt is a rating and rank, Hauptfeldwebel is not. It is a function. The actual rank of the Spiess would ideally be Stabs- or Oberfeldwebel (SS-Sturm- or Hauptscharführer). But perhaps more normally well below this, being "diensttuer" (acting), as experienced NCOs were needed for combat service.

But anyway, lets stick to penetrating the US Army here

All the best

Dandelion

[Breakthrough]

If you were born in 1928 you would be eighteen in 1942. Therefore, the 'Class of 28' was largely called upon in the post Dec 7th draft.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

Comment on Gefreiter:

No, it was not an NCO rank, but nor are all corporals. I forgot that the Lance-Corporal was not present in US armies in WWII In my opinion, the Gefreiter closely resembles the lance corporal.

No it doesn't. A Lance Corporal in the British Army was not a rank at all - it was an appointment. It was also considered an NCO position, whereas Gefreiter and Obergefreiter were not. Look at it this way - in the British Army a corporal was a command position, in that he commanded a ten man section. The British Corporal was VERY MUCH considered an NCO in every sense of the word. In the German Army, this was done - in perfect circumstances - by an Unteroffizier.

Gefreiter and Obergefreiter would more closely be linked, in the American example, to a Private First Class. An American Corporal did not command a squad in theory, a sergeant did, but was still considered an NCO.

This just goes to show that comparisons between ranks of the different armies are very false, and one should look more to the responsibilities of the various ranks than at a straight across comparison.

My grandfather served in the war and progressed from Schütze to, eventually, Major. He wrote a letter to my grandma upon becoming Gefreiter in 38. The liberation from manual labor simply ment no potato-peeling or WC cleaning for him anymore. The man was quite delighted. It says nothing about Oberschütze though. Your interpretation makes sense. The Gefreiter might simply be the EM who had expressed interest in or shown aptitude for further training. In contrast to the Oberschütze.

I think so, too, and so we agree.

Comment on Spiess:

I thought the Spiess was thus nicked because of the Halberds they used to carry, to keep men in line, under Fredrick the Great.

You are probably correct here, I was passing on info handed to my third hand.

A difference here is that while 1st Sgt is a rating and rank, Hauptfeldwebel is not.

I hope this is what I said earlier, but if not, you are correct. Der Spiess could be any NCO rank from Unteroffizier up, but most commonly held by - as you point out - Ober or Stabsfeldwebel. Incidentally, as you may know, the latter rank was created especially for 12 year career NCOs between the wars, and was a reward for their long service.

It is a function.

Yes. In the Commonwealth we use the term "appointment" but you are exactly correct. The distinction between rank and appointment is an important one, as you point out.

The actual rank of the Spiess would ideally be Stabs- or Oberfeldwebel (SS-Sturm- or Hauptscharführer). But perhaps more normally well below this, being "diensttuer" (acting), as experienced NCOs were needed for combat service.

Exactly - your point about the higher ranking NCOs being needed for combat service is interesting though, I hadn't run across that explanation before. I assumed that if der Spiess was only an Unterfeldwebel, say, it meant that there was a shortage of higher ranking NCOs due to casualties, lack of replacements, etc., not because all the Obers were being used in the front lines. Would you care to expand on this?

But anyway, lets stick to penetrating the US Army here

All the best

Dandelion

Must we? I have much to learn about the Germans!

[ March 09, 2003, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Breakthrough:

If you were born in 1928 you would be eighteen in 1942. Therefore, the 'Class of 28' was largely called upon in the post Dec 7th draft.

Ummm. . . I think your math is a bit off here. Someone born in 1928 turned 18 in 1946, and therefore wasn't eligible for the draft until after WWII was over.

You may have hit on the right track, though, as far as the term's origin and meaning. Someone who graduated high school in 1928 would be (approximately) 32 in 1942. I don't know the exact age at which the US Army was cutting off eligibility for the draft during WWII, but it was probably somewhere around 32.

So, a "Class of 28er" might mean an older enlisted man just barely eligible for the draft, and therefore presumably one of the oldest enlisted men in his unit.

This is pure speculation, though. As I said, I can't find any mention of the term in my slang dictionary.

Cheers,

YD

[ March 09, 2003, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: YankeeDog ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Breakthrough:

If you were born in 1928 you would be eighteen in 1942. Therefore, the 'Class of 28' was largely called upon in the post Dec 7th draft.

Ummm. . . I think your math is a bit off here. Someone born in 1928 turned 18 in 1946, and therefore wasn't eligible for the draft until after WWII was over.

You may have hit on the right track, though, as far as the term's origin and meaning. Someone who graduated high school in 1928 would be (approximately) 32 in 1942. I don't know the exact age at which the US Army was cutting off eligibility for the draft during WWII, but it was probably somewhere around 32.

So, a "Class of 28er" might mean an older enlisted man just barely eligible for the draft, and therefore presumably one of the oldest enlisted men in his unit.

This is pure speculation, though. As I said, I can't find any mention of the term in my slang dictionary.

Cheers,

YD </font>

[Dandelion]

"A Lance Corporal in the British Army was not a rank at all - it was an appointment."[Dorosh]

I see. Didn't know that. I was thinking on somebody in particular with that comparison. I had a friend when I was in the service, in our UK "friend" Rgt the Ox and Bucks, who was a lance corporal (this was thirteen years ago so I assume he is no longer at that rank). We met only a couple of times, in the UK and Germany, me being at exchange a few rounds, and though we got along remarkably well, it was probably more due to my youthful anglophilia than anything else. No idea what became of him. At any rate, he had a chevron on his arm. I interpreted this (never asked I must admit) as signifying the rank of lance-corporal, thus thought it was a rating proper. When I likened the Gefreiter to the lance corporal, it was the duties of this fellow I had in mind. But now that you inform me of this, I realise that of course a Spiess also carried signifying stripes on his arm, even though this was also an appointment. My mistake there.

"Incidentally, as you may know, the latter rank was created especially for 12 year career NCOs between the wars, and was a reward for their long service."[Dorosh]

Actually I did not know this, and noted it with great interest. I am certainly not under the impression that you have a lot to learn about WWII German Armed forces. In fact, never met a non-German/Austrian who could point out this level of detail in a correspondence before.

---

Some elaboration on the lack of properly rated Spiess personnel. I am not sure how to, as you hit the problem head on nail. Shortage. But not primarily due to high attrition rates of Hauptfeldwebels as such. The structure of the problem can be described as follows.

The German Heer expanded at a crippling rate. Speaking infantry divisions exclusively, she had 39 of them in 1939, some 137 by may 1940, some 175 by july 1941, some 226 by 1943 and some 240 by 1945. The expansion was eventually more and more theoretical, but this did not entirely eliminate the need for command cadre for new units. The expansion took place with simultaneous campaigning, with the attrition and casualty rates this meant. An attrition rate which in the case of the Heer alone eventually reached some 3 250 000 people.

One result was that by july 1941, the relative lack of NCOs was at some 11% in the average infantry division, including Mot. and Teilmot. divisions but not Geb. (may have been the same for Geb. but I wouldnt know). Percentage is comparing Sollstärke with Instande, ending up with a negative number. This shortage was to increase steadily all the way to Stunde Null.

By July 1941, the manpower shortage other ranks had not yet made itself felt in ernest (as it was to do about a year later). Instead, Divisions beefed their totals by having surplus EM to compensate lack of NCOs. Quite a few divisions managed to reach Sollstärke this way, speaking total numbers.

In addition, there was a lack of infantry officers. This was not just a problem in itself, it also created an increased need for competent NCO cadre in the "sabre/bayonet" units. Both to compensate lack of officers and to weigh up the decreasing quality of new officers.

Due to the constant high attrition rate, combat units were at the end of this stick, feeling most acutely the effects of the problem.

Activities in the divisional F.E.-Btl. NCO schools increased steadily, as did field promotions, but the problem not only remained but worsened.

All in all, the shortages created a forward motion throughout the German Armed Forces. Competent personnel in good shape were taken from non-combat duties and sent forward either to replace casualties or to be used for new units. The more drastic of these efforts are generally known - workers taken out of factories to be replaced by slave labor, for example. Or Luftwaffe ground personnel formed into infantry divisions. The NCOs were merely in particular short supply, thus more exposed to the forward transfer motion. This phenonemum can often quite easily be observed in divisional rosters, if one is looking for it. Names keep changing places with time, and all of them from left to right. i.e. forward to the line. Except the odd "section 8" moving the other way (see, I have learned a new word )

The Spiess was mong the first to go. An experienced old veteran in a position enjoying either trust and confidence or, failing that, at least authority in his unit. His duties as such could by and large be performed by any freshly baked NCO with basic administrative aptitude. By July 41 either Wehrkreis or combat units will have dragged this precious commodity off and he will not again be replaced by an NCO of equal experience.

So, even without any Spiess KIAs, they were still rapidly decimated.

---

I was wondering. An Army expanding as rapidly as the US, forming around only 5 regular divisions, must reasonably have had the same kind of problems. How many experienced NCOs could they have had to distribute? Even if they did not experience the attrition rates, they did expand much faster. Any input on this?

Yours sincerely

Dandelion

[Dandelion]

West Point, yes, that would make sense. The person mentioned is an officer. Class of 28, as in graduated from West Point in 1928 then? That would give him 14 years service by 1942. What rank would such a man be at after 14 years of service? Would Captain or Major be reasonable? Sounds like a not too rocketeering career.

Dandelion

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

[/qb]

I would suggest that the West Point class of 1928 may be the genesis of this term. A look at the graduating class list may prove why? [/QB]

[lcm1947]

Would someone explain what you mean when you say that an individual was appointed to a rank? I know what appointed means but not when it pertains to getting a rank. Also, on the Class of 28 thing I wonder if it could pertain to how much war time a soldier had in or something to that effect? Just a wild ass guess on my part. Hope someone actually learns what it means and lets us know even if it's down the road and starts a new post after this one gets further down the pages. I am dying to know now. Never in close to 3 years have I seen a question stump this group.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

Would someone explain what you mean when you say that an individual was appointed to a rank? I know what appointed means but not when it pertains to getting a rank.

Rank: a grade of military promotion

Appointment: a temporary position held by men of a specific rank

Examples of rank (Commonwealth Army)

Private, Corporal, Sergeant, Staff Sergeant, Warrant Officer II Class, Warrant Officer I Class

Examples of appointment

Company Sergeant Major, Company Quartermaster Sergeant, Lance Corporal, Lance Sergeant, Regimental Sergeant Major, Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant

A rank was a basic grade; an appointment was a specific duty within a company, battery or squadron.

Then you have the question of Platoon Commander, Section Commander, Platoon Sergeant - I suppose these are appointments as well, though I don't know if the Army technically refers to them as such. No reference I've seen lists these as actual "appointments".

John would probably know better than me about this?

[Dandelion]

"I know what appointed means but not when it pertains to getting a rank." [lcm1947]

Well sir, rank follows the man while appointment follows the organisation. Appointment is position within an organisation. A job, if You like.

Rank indicated level and nature of training in an individual. His qualifications. It (ideally) determined his access to jobs in the army (appointments).

Rank and function were so closely adapted to eachother that one can normally assume coherence, e.g. that a captain (the rank) will be a company commander (the job). But realities of war of course caused deviations. Unlike in civilian life though, one recieved pay in accordance with title (rank), not actual job (appointment).

Sincerely

Dandelion