Fionn Posted November 6, 1999 Share Posted November 6, 1999 Umm about Guy Sajer, I wouldn't dispute that he is alive and is Guy Sajer.. I merely stated the book is fiction.. He said he was in GD BUT the veteran association goes livid whenever anyone asks about him since that division has ZERO record of him being in that division. Also, how many people who were in GD have come forward saying they knew him? Exactly .. Look, it's a work of fiction but its good fiction and better than a lot of "real" war books. Reverendo, Well, that's what happens in close assaults. 5 Emplaced men are quite capable of seeing off your full-strength Panzergrenadier squad. If tactics were easy then everyone would be a great leader . As I understand it that's a graphical abstraction to represent infantry close assaults on tanks a la Saving Private Ryan. It usually costs HUGE casualties to the infantry though but can be done. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted November 6, 1999 Share Posted November 6, 1999 Fionn, The points made by Mr. gawne include the possibility that Sajer was never assigned to GD. But that does not in and of itself make the work a fictional account. I am not in a position to read the original French to make comparisons, but I think the lack of recognition of his name by GD veterans and documents is far from conclusive proof that the account is fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 6, 1999 Share Posted November 6, 1999 Sorry Cunningham but Sajer writes about GD's organically attached Tiger units and describes battles with them in support, he takes GREAT pains to explain why his training as part of GD was so strenuous and how the officers were consistently telling the men they were special etc.. He follows the timeline of deployments of GD very closely. Give that he spends an inordinate amount of time talking about the training he had for the GD, discusses units of the GD and follows their deployments this makes his book a work of fiction. If he was in the 333rd Infantry Division BUT writes a book in which he was a soldier in the GD then THAT book is a work of fiction. If you accept he wasn't in GD then the book is a work of fiction since he makes copious references to actions of the GD (which he was involved in according to himself) in the book. I have the first English translation (yes with flaws of course) here and I can quote chapter and verse of locations where he clearly states he was a member of the GD when it was being formed.. This has been shown to be false. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supertanker Posted November 6, 1999 Share Posted November 6, 1999 It might be an error to simply state that tanks physically running over infantry either did or did not happen all of the time. Different war, different place, but in Tank Sergeant (IIRC), by Ralph Zumbro, he described numerous times where the US tankers in Vietnam would drive their tank onto a spider hole or a log bunker and do a neutral steer on top of it. This would simultaneously kill the occupants and destroy the fortification. With this in mind, my point is that it depends on circumstances as to whether or not this is a valid tactic. If soldiers are out in the open, it seems unlikely you could move the tank quickly enough to actually run someone over. If they are in certain types of fortifications, physical overruns perhaps might be a valid tactic. Zumbro also describes another close assault tactic of driving up to a bunker and inserting the 90mm (I think these were M48 tanks) into the firing slots of the bunker and firing an HE round inside. Very effective, from both the round and the expanding propellant gases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerLeader Posted November 6, 1999 Share Posted November 6, 1999 But are those Gross Deutschland veteran lists complete? Are you sure they have the name of every single man who fought in the GD during the war? Some administration papers were perhaps lost, in the confusion and chaos at the end, in May 1945... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted November 7, 1999 Share Posted November 7, 1999 I agree that tanks overrunning infantry was probably not very common occurrence. However, tanks running over equipment was more common. I can remember two concrete cases where Finnish tankers overrun guns: First, in November 1941 sergeant Heino drove over an AT gun battery with his T-34 (if I remember correctly he had captured it himself some time before). The sources that I have read of the occasion differ on details. One source claimed that the guns were 45 mm AT guns that were positioned in a small orchard in a village and the guns had time to fire a couple of shots which failed to penetrate the armor. If I remember correctly, this version was attributed to a Finnish T-26 driver who witnessed the thing. The other account stated that the guns were 76 mm "crack-boom"s that were in tow and Heino overrun them before they couldn't open fire. The second case happened on 14 June at Kuuterselkä. The Stug-IIIg of Lt Olli Aulanko run over a Soviet AT gun company that was on tow. The Soviet column blocked the road and after firing a couple of shots from the main gun Aulanko decided to run over the horses, carriages, and guns. Both of the above occurrences are well-documented. BTW, both Aulanko and Heino received the Mannerheim's cross, the highest Finnish military award. Aulanko for destroying 22 Soviet tanks. I don't remember exactly what Heino did to receive the award but he was clearly the best Finnish tank driver of the war. Someone mentioned Hassel's books on this thread (I can't check it right now). His books are 100% fiction. In fact, I have noticed word-to-word rips from at least three different war books. First, from "All quient on Western Front" he took some scenes, at least the one where the men receive triple rations because the field kitchen doesn't know about the heavy losses. Hassel plagiarized the "Good Soldier Svejk" heavily. Right now I can remember one case (there were more): the occasion when field kitchen throws the food away because they were only practicing occurred in one of Svejk's endles stories. From Linna's "The Unknown Soldier" he ripped the "Finland-Soviet Union Wrestling Championship" word-to-word. My opinion is, that if there is some real occurrence in Hassel's books that is because he copied it from some authentic book. -Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted November 7, 1999 Share Posted November 7, 1999 Fionn, I went looking for the piece that convinced me that The Forgotten Soldier is the real deal. I found it. It is from the March-April 1997 issue of Military Review. I have inserted the text below. ------------------------------------------ The Forgotten Soldier Revisited I recently established contact with Guy Sajer, the author of the well-known autobiography The Forgotten Soldier, a military literature classic that describes the author's experiences fighting for Germany against the Soviet Union during World War II. With regard to a previous letter to the editor by Lieutenant Colonel Edwin L. Kennedy, published in your March-April 1996 issue--"Military Professionals do not Use Fiction as Fact"--I would like to set the record straight. After 18 months of research, I was able to locate Sajer. He lives in a rural village approximately 50 miles east of Paris under his nom de plume. Although not his real last name (Guy is his real first name), Sajer is his mother's maiden name. She was born in Gotha, Germany. He enlisted in the German Wehrmacht in 1942 under a German name to avoid the ridicule he would have received had he used his real French last name. To verify his book's authenticity, I asked Sajer a series of questions that had been raised by Kennedy in a Spring 1992 Army History article titled "The Forgotten Soldier: Fiction or Fact?" Sajer quickly responded to my query. Although he admitted that minor details such as uniform insignia, weapons nomenclatures and other such things were not important to him, he stands by what he wrote 30 years ago. He insists that he did not set out to write the definitive history of World War II, only what he had personally experienced while fighting in the elite Grossdeutschland division on the Russian Front. He admitted that he could have erred in describing locations and chronology, but that he wrote things as he remembered them. In his letter to me, he stated that "In the darkness of a night in Russia, you could have told me that we were in China, and I would have believed you." Further details on Sajer's wartime and postwar experiences are described in an upcoming article I wrote for Army History, scheduled for publication in their Fall 1997 issue. Kennedy's own key witness, former Grossdeutschland Division historian and reconnaissance squadron commander Major (Ret.) Helmuth Spaeter, who claimed that The Forgotten Soldier was fictional, has now changed his thinking. After reading several letters from Sajer, Spaeter admitted in a letter to me that he now believes that Sajer could have been a member of that famous division after all. Spaeter wrote about his new-found admiration for Guy Sajer and planned to reread his own German copy of the book, titled Denn diese Tage Quall war gross: Erinnerung eines vergessenen Soldaten (These Days Were Full of Great Suffering--Memories of a Forgotten Soldier, (Munich: Verlag Fritz Molden, 1969) in order to examine it from a more unbiased point of view. Hopefully, Sajer's efforts to clear his name will reestablish the prominence his book has earned on many a soldier's bookshelf. Readers can rest assured that when they pick up a copy of The Forgotten Soldier, they will be reading one of the best and most realistic books ever written from an infantryman's perspective, regardless of which side he fought for in World War II. Lieutenant Colonel Douglas E. Nash, USA, US Special Operations Command, MacDill AFB, Florida ------------------------------------------ If you want to see it for yourself the link is: http://www-cgsc.army.mil/milrev/English/marapr97/letters.htm. I have been unable to locate the Army History issues mentioned (still working). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 7, 1999 Share Posted November 7, 1999 Cunningham, Well, I'm always open to new info. If I feel the proof is sufficient I will change my mind. I still think it's fiction but we'll see. BTW do the records show Guy's "Germanic name" as having served? tss: Running over AT guns etc IS in... ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted November 7, 1999 Share Posted November 7, 1999 BTW re: Tanks crushing infnatry and it being a myth. I am in possesion of Panzer Marsch which is a compilition of among other things a few german Training films shot during the war. One covers the defense of tanks against infantry (when they are without infantry support) and covers running over and crushing infantry positions, showing specifically how it's done. BTW re: Sajer and real or not, I kinda believe he's real. It's not enough that he got details wrong in his story. Some dickwad historian notwithstanding. I'll tell you myself that I have been in the army for 22 years, and long before that I was into military history and wargaming. I have been very much attuned to everything I did, tactics, history, blah blah blah. I'm also here to tell you that there is a bunch of stuff that I am occasionally hard pressed to remember all the details from the early years of my own career including stuff like names, unit designations (not mine but units I've worked with), TOEs and OOBs of various units, spoecifics of deployments, and what not. I didn't keep the meticulous notes that I did later in my career. Sure I can remember with excrutiating details various incidents and anecdotes but if I had to write a detailed history of say some of the operations I was involved in, I'd no doubt get stuff wrong even major things. (AT the time I was worried about getting the job done and staying alive) And with a lot of vietnam vets I know (there's still four left in my unit), it's the same way. SO it doesn't surprise me that a guy writing after the war, who probably wasn't even into things military but a regular draftee would have a hard time remebering some details even if he could tell you how many bubbles of blood frothed out of his best friends ernst shattered jaw in the long hour or two it took him to die. Los [This message has been edited by Los (edited 11-07-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted November 7, 1999 Share Posted November 7, 1999 Fionn, I have put in a request at the Combined Arms Research Library at Fort Leavenworth. I've asked for the Article from 92 where LTC Kennedy question the Sajer story and the 97 article by LTC Nash that rebutts it. I don't know how long it will take to get a response. When I get something back, I will post it here as a new thread. I will also go check the post libraries, but I think my chances are low since I'd never heard of the Army History: The Professional Bulletin before this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 7, 1999 Share Posted November 7, 1999 Los, I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying that I don't think it should be in the game since it was a 1 on 1 thing and not a tank vs squad thing. Also, I'm quite sure that training films showed how to do it. As for Sajer, I'm not concerned with him getting things exactly right. Any cursory skimming of the book would show numerous errors etc which I don't mind at all and would expect in any book written by a veteran. HOWEVER the fact that no-one from GD remembers him and that no records of him exist etc are VERY strange... I would, at this point, agree he was probably in the German army but I definitely doubt he was in GD and think his book is a work of fiction based on real experiences. I also don't completely rule out the possibility that he mightn't have fought at all. BUT Los, just to make it clear, I wasn't all concerned about minor errors here and there. I AM concerned by the GD veterans association stating he was NOT a member of GD and that they did not find a SINGLE person who knew him in the GD. (Isn't it a little weird that ALL the people who he knew well died ? VERY convenient isn't it?) Now, maybe that's what really happened but between the lack of records, the lack of friends who knew him and other stuff it makes his claims very difficult to accept without a LOT more proof from him. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted November 7, 1999 Share Posted November 7, 1999 What about artillery and mortars and HMGs?? I think a tank would run them over pretty easily, since the squad would just abandon ship. ------------------ CCJ aka BLITZ_Force My Homepage - www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Beach/4448 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 7, 1999 Share Posted November 7, 1999 Artillery ARE included in my AT guns etc post.. others. don't know. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted November 7, 1999 Share Posted November 7, 1999 Fionn, I agree re: tank crushing. Was only bringing it up for interest. RE: GJ, not that's it's an issue even getting into, but do you have the slightest idea at all how many guys porbably served in the GD??? The unit was practically wiped out and rebuilt plenty of times and went from a regt to a corps, porbably a hundred thousand or more. The fact that one private is not remember by the few veterans that survived the war is not in the slightest bit surprising. I wouldn't even hold that up as an issue. Especially with eth state of records inmay units being what they were after the war. (Sure if the guy was purporting to ba a battalion commander or something....) Now if somebody produces a document saying here is a complete list of all soldiers that were in the GJ or better yet here is the list of soldiers in xx div between 1943-45 and you could see that private Sajer is in that unit well then that's a better argumnent. Again back to my own example, There are probably plenty of people that were in my old division (82d abn) that would be lost to history unless there were records. The 82d amb div association is a large organization but not large enough to in any way encompass more that a fraction of all the guys that were ever in it. Cheers... Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerLeader Posted November 7, 1999 Share Posted November 7, 1999 Fionn, Not all of his friends died.You forget some important guys: Hals(his best friend), Lindberg(the coward who fought with him from Belgorod onwards), Pferham(the priest),...It would be interesting to know if those soldiers really existed, and if they're alive today. Questioning them would give major evidence that Sajer did fight in the GD (or not). I wonder whether the military historians have already tried to find them. But it's probably very tough, maybe impossible. And just for curiosity, how many men are part of the GD veteran association? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 Well, I would generally accept that records could be burnt etc BUT you have to remember he was in the INITIAL cadre of GD for which, it seems to me, it is far, far more likely the records survived the war since these transfers wouldn't have been haphazard. E.g. That road-clearing unit he worked for.. Can he show transfer orders from IT? No ! So he hasn't got proof he transferred out at that time and has no proof he transferred into GD. Just seems suspicious. As for your example of the 82nd I agree. I see it with the Seals as well. I am a particular fan of the Seal Fakes expose page on the net and I agree that it is possible Sajer served but merely was lost to records... It's not that any one part of his story is provably false its just that so many portions are unsupportable, off kilter and suspicious that just makes me doubt Panzerleader is right re: those other guys who supposedly survived the war. If Sajer could even bring one or two of them up to testify for him I'd be more inclined to believe but, to the best of my knowledge he has failed to bring ANYONE forward who will support his story.. I am open to correction on that last part though.. Maybe he's found some of his old buddies? ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 First off, Sajer was a POW before the end of the war, so any personal documents or records (not that he was apt to even be lugging them around other than his paybook that stuff is usually kept by admin) would have been lost or confiscated just like every other POW in the history of warfare. And how do you figure Sajer was in the initial cadre? He transfers to the GD sometime in the spring 1943 after Stalingrad. The GD was around long before the war started (initially as a regiment then expanding to a division around April of 1942) so he most definately is not a plankholder nor is it claimed so in the book. And as has been pointed out the guy that started the whole "Sajer is a fake trend" has since had his key witness (The GD division historian) retract his statement that Sajer was a fake. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 There is a source of info that would be good to go looking in -> POW records. My understanding of them is that they were VERY good, and are still very much intact (probably even the Soviet's are good enough). I also know that the Allies had a keen interest in any and all "elite" unit personnel. I find it odd that the GD association would reject a bonified member, who wrote one of the most critically aclaimed books (and one that reflects fairly well on the German PoV of the war in Russia) if they didn't firmly believe him to be a fake. Not saying that he is for sure, 100% or anything, but I find it strange. Although from the source Cunningham cited, perhaps this is changing? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 Steve: "I find it odd that the GD association would reject a bonified member, who wrote one of the most critically aclaimed books..." FWIW That has always been the key for me. When the GD accepts him as 'real' so will I. I mean its not like he trashed them in the book or anything, what reason would they have to decline him? ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 Couple of things to point out re: Sajer and GD while I'm waiting on additional information. Sajer states he did not use this pen name while a soldier in the Wehrmacht. No GD member could possibly remember the name Sajer. Mr. Sajer himself seems uninterested in trying to defend his book and it seems he is/was unaware of the criticisms of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oberly Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 Check out this site for a very interesting article on the book.I happen to believe it's mostly genuine myself,after reading many articles pro and con: http://www.uwm.edu/~jpipes/sajer.html Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted November 8, 1999 Share Posted November 8, 1999 Mr. Oberly, You took the wind out of my sails! That is the article by Lt Colonel Nash that I have two libraries looking for at the moment. The article he is rebutting from Lt Colonel Kennedy is the other one they're looking for. I had intended to post both of them and let everyone decide on their own. Now I can only hope to get the original Kennedy article from 92. Comment on the article. This cuff title issue figures prominently and it occured to me that there is a simple explanation for why Sajer got it wrong. What clued me in was he said THEY sewed it on the left sleeve. The right sleeve would appear on the left as the soldier looks at his jacket from the front. I'm guessing that maybe a translation error is at fault here. Interesting note is that Mr. Pipes posted this article without crediting the author as the end notes indicate several letters to Nash, which how I take this to be his article. This is surprising given the fight he put up about the improper use of one of his images on the former CC3 gamestats site back in Feb/March. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oberly Posted November 9, 1999 Share Posted November 9, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The article he is rebutting from Lt Colonel Kennedy is the other one they're looking for<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes,I read Kennedy's article some time ago,and it is the one most people point to when they want to debunk the book,but I found it unconvincing.It almost seems a shrill attack on the book,as if Kennedy is offended somehow that people accept the book as genuine.Please let me know if you are able to dig it up... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest R Cunningham Posted November 9, 1999 Share Posted November 9, 1999 This thread's getting long. I've got both articles. I will sacn them in tomorrow. They are rather long. Should I post them in a thread or send emails to those interested? One of these articles would beat M. Hofbauer's record diatribe post. [This message has been edited by R Cunningham (edited 11-09-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 9, 1999 Share Posted November 9, 1999 It would probably be best if you could post the articlest to some webspace and then post a link here. The safety limit for a thread is only 125k or so. Plus, it is pretty off topic seeing as it is a book and a book about the Eastern Front Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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