guachi Posted July 21, 2000 Share Posted July 21, 2000 Andres wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Wasn't there something that on an ammo chain you would have every X round tracer, and every X round AP, if available? Does the job for killing soft targets, and just in case...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I was watching an episode of 'Tales of the Gun' on The History Channel several months ago. FWIW, they mentioned the ammo loadout on an M2 was 2 ball, 1 AP, 1 incendiary, 1 tracer. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianc Posted July 21, 2000 Share Posted July 21, 2000 Just as and addon: I was playing a QB last nite as Germans, combined arms. I was given one platoon of inf, 4 HT's, a Puma, and a Stug to start with. Damned if the Ami's 60mm mortars didn't kill every last one of my halftracks AND the Puma by direct top hits by game's end. I was moving them around too... Fluke? How hard is it to hit something vehicle-sized with a mortar? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted July 21, 2000 Share Posted July 21, 2000 ------------------------- Mark IV Member posted 07-18-2000 03:10 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting. I found this spec (from TM 43-0001-27 "Army Ammunition Data Sheets Small Caliber Ammuntion"): "Cartridge, Caliber .30, Armor Piercing, M2 Use: M37, M1919A4 and M1919A6 Machine Guns Rifle, Caliber .30, M1 (Garand) "Description: Armor Piercing. Cartridge is identified by a black bullet tip. "Function: Penetration, fired at 7/8 inch thick homogenous armor plate at 100 yards, will not be less than .42 inch." I think most of the German HTs are shown as having 8-15mm armor. The thick front, then, is about .6" thick. Not sure what this proves, and of course most of the flying ordnance was ball, not AP, but still it's close enough to make any HT crew cautious. ----------------- On the History Channel last night in Tales of the Gun, they covered the American machine guns of WW2. One thing they pointed out was that the .30 AP round was used by a lot of troops in various automatic weapons, in particular the LMG's and I think, BAR's. Apparently, they preferred not to use ball when they could have AP. The show even demonstrated use of the round through concrete/stone walls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MH Posted July 21, 2000 Share Posted July 21, 2000 Fact is, I get my squads out of the damn HT as soon as I smell gun-fire. Things are nothing more than a death trap in the game. After that, they make good flanking moves to cut off retreating/repossessing enemy troops....assuming you can get them there before they're fried. And to be honest (and this ain't pretty) they make good recon cannon fodder to ferret out emery guns. Waste a HT to save a AFV any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 21, 2000 Share Posted July 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by danielh: Jeff, In the Villers Bocage Operation my Tigers took out a whole bunch of Halftracks only with their machineguns ! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nice, historical as well, as Wittmann reportedly ordered the use of the co-ax and BMG on the HTs at Villers, to save main gun rounds. HTs are deadly in groups vs Inf, though in the right situation, I ran about a Company's worth of Grenadiers, into the US defenders, in 251's today and unloaded them about 100ms from the US position the 251's layed down heavy fire, and even drove off alot of the US troops, allowing my Inf to form up and assault, and take the villages. Luckily the 2 Tiger E's & 2 Panthers I had took out the M-10 & zook teams in LOS thats why I risked the uber charge 8P, and it paid off. Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted July 21, 2000 Share Posted July 21, 2000 Like most weapons/units, when used right HTs are deadly. Used incorrectly, or in the wrong circumstances, they are dead meat. The standard proceedure was for the HTs to race up to a realtively safe position and deposite their passengers. They were then to either offer fire support with their MGs at a distance or withdraw (if things were too dangerous). I suspect many of you folks are moving your HTs too close to enemy fire and/or into situations where the enemy isn't propperly softened up. IIRC the HMG42 can whack a US M3 HT at only something like 200m. If you are losing M3s to HMG42 units you are TOO close. If you are losing German HTs to .50cal you haven't suppressed the enemy enough. I had this great battle a while back with a platoon of SS troops sweeping a flank with 4 HTs about 200m behind them. It worked just like I have read about. I dropped the guys off, moved them ahead, and kept the HTs back. The infantry started to engage the enemy, the HTs provided some covering fire, and the more engaged my infantry became the more freedom I felt I had to move the HTs. I crushed the enemy with few losses in men and no HTs (well, except when the Fighter Bomber came over and whacked 3 of them in as many turns ). Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 21, 2000 Share Posted July 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Like most weapons/units, when used right HTs are deadly. Used incorrectly, or in the wrong circumstances, they are dead meat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Steve - I believe there is an issue about maneuver when under mortar fire though, i.e. it does not happen. When an AFV spots it is in trouble (e.g. spotted an enemy AFV/LATW/AT-gun) the TacAI will reverse it out of there and drop smoke. In an operation I currently play I took out two ACs by dropping a mortar barrage on them. The mortar rounds were dropping for a whole turn, with the kill coming towards the end in each case. The TacAI made no attempt to get out of it. I believe that this might be the reason for the what seems to me very high number of top-armour hits in the game. And there is little or nothing you can do as the player, except for keeping them continually on the move. Any comments on this? Am I doing something wrong or have other people had similar experiences? ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted July 21, 2000 Share Posted July 21, 2000 Andreas, I've come to the same conclusion about the number of HT and Armored Car kills due to Mortars. The TacAI doesn't seem to see them as a threat. My suspicion is that the TacAI doesn't take area fire into account for vehicles. Vehicles do seem to react to direct mortar fire (when there is a red targetting line between the mortar and vehicle). When it's area fire (like when it's indirect) the vehicles just seem to sit there in the barrage. If the TacAI would move vehicles coming under mortar (or offboard) fire, I think we wouldn't see nearly as many vehicles kills due to arty... Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted July 21, 2000 Share Posted July 21, 2000 Let's see Andreas, you're complaining because you took out a halftrack of mine? I feel so sorry for you that it took a whole two shots .. YOU GOT THE DAMNED THING DIDN'T YOU? Furthermore, you likely will win but you'll not have too many left to celebrate the fact Regarding Michael Schumacher, he had barge boards on the 251 IIRC ... you have to follow Formula 1 to get that reference I'm afraid. Oh and FORZA FERRARI! Finally, Jeff I was in the same boat on that scenario, who the hell parked them there and then padlocked them? And in the same (un-named) scenario I ran a convoy of 251's up a side street ... right into a convoy of HMG Jeeps and AC's ... lost all but one on Turn 1. Those German HT's and AC's are dead meat against 50 cals. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 21, 2000 Share Posted July 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe Shaw: Let's see Andreas, you're complaining because you took out a halftrack of mine? I feel so sorry for you that it took a whole two shots .. YOU GOT THE DAMNED THING DIDN'T YOU? Furthermore, you likely will win but you'll not have too many left to celebrate the fact <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nah - I am not complaining, just scratching my head (which is an improvement), and I only do it b/c I feel for you. Honest, I really do. So much that I really look forward to the point when the immobilised *censored* will get a zook up its rear-end. Can't wait. You may ask for terms now. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted July 21, 2000 Share Posted July 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Nah - I am not complaining, just scratching my head (which is an improvement), and I only do it b/c I feel for you. Honest, I really do. So much that I really look forward to the point when the immobilised *censored* will get a zook up its rear-end. Can't wait. You may ask for terms now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If I ask for terms will you promise NOT to tell me what else you've been scratching {shudder}? Okay, what terms do you offer? I'd really like that one you used about the kitchen sink? The unpronouncable German word that was about 36 characters long? I really liked that term. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 21, 2000 Share Posted July 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe Shaw: If I ask for terms will you promise NOT to tell me what else you've been scratching {shudder}? Okay, what terms do you offer? I'd really like that one you used about the kitchen sink? The unpronouncable German word that was about 36 characters long? I really liked that term. Joe<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I promise. Apart from that the usual - K-rations for diner for all POWs, a nice enclosed space to stay in, where barbed wire will protect your men from the unwanted attention of sheep and a mud puddle. Hmm, maybe I will feel munificent (is that a word?) and throw in a toothbrush. One shower every four weeks, giving a whole new meaning to the term 'Dirty Hun'. Oh, and organised tours to do mine-clearance on the Westwall. How about it? Now after all that - any ideas about the armour/maneuver/area barrage problem, if that's what it is? Let me just say that as a defender I love it, and as an attacker I either don't buy light armour or keep it on the move... Although I recently found out that 3in mortars are good Panther killers (here kitty kitty)... No good against Tigers though... ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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