von Lucke Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 I've seen discussions before about the AI not wanting to use it's limited supply of "specialty" ammo ("c" and "t") when and where it should, but this is something a bit different. Specifically, I'm talking about vehicles like the Firefly and Daimler SC that have nothing but AP not wanting to use it on life threatening targets! I first encountered this "anomaly" when I had to literaly chase an MG Jeep around the map with a StuG III because the damn StuG refused to fire at the Jeep with it's only remaining ammo, five AP rounds. I wrote this one off with the "AI conserving ammo for better targets" explanation and let it slide. Recently, though, I fought a battle where I had a couple of Fireflys and Daimlers run into a few Sd Kfz 7/2's --- only with more disasterous results! The unarmored flak vehicles cleaned the Brit's clocks, ladies and gents! Quite easily, as it turned out, because the big, bad, 17lbr wealding scourge of Tigers everywhere refused to fire on a little 'ol unarmored half-track! OK, that's not exactly true, they did fire --- their MG's! Yes, as the 37mm flak kannon got one penetration after another (usually for no damage, granted), and then an immobilization, and finally a lower-hull kill, the 'fly's and Daimlers merely returned fire with their coax MG's. Thinking this might just be bad luck, I set up 10 QB's of my own with Firefly's and Daimler's vs. the deadly unarmored rear-facing scourge of Sd Kfz's. Final score: Brit's 0 / German's 10. Even tried using Elite Brits vs Regular Germans in the last 4 battles. Didn't help. Oh, occasionally the Brit's would lob an AP round in the general direction of Jerry (usually at ranges over 600m), but for the most part, the AI seems to be content with using it's MG's on what it considers a "soft" target. Well, I got news for ya --- that 37mm hits back hard! Strangely enough, on a couple of occasions the AI mis-identified the 'tracks as SP guns (because of distance), and fired off several AP rounds --- until it ID'd the target, then it switched to MG's. What's also kinda strange is that the 37mm seems to connect with almost every shot (high ROF too!), yet the few AP rounds that the Brit's choose to fire invariably miss. Even stranger when you consider a Firefly has a silhouette of 101, and the Sd Kfz's is 120. Well, just thought I'd vent a little! But I think I'll be buying Sd Kfz 7/2's instead of Tigers the next time I face off against the Commonwealth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 yeah. sounds like a bug. I'm also wondering about PF usage.. seems a bit unpredictable at the moment, you just can't rely on your guys using they damn thing, even in positions where they have suprise, are in command, etc etc. hmm. PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 I've also encountered very weird PF behaviour. Most recently, I had a vet. motorized squad attacking an enemy infantry squad at about 30 m and there was an enemy SP gun at 50 m. So the motorized squad shoots at the enemy infantry and then fires a PF.... at the infantry! Luckily, near the end of the turn it fired off the second PF, this time at the appropriate target at killed it But still, they won't fire the damn things when I want them too, and then waste them on infantry. Cheers, Walter R. Strapps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 Wow, you had the bad guys around, probably shooting at you, and you men fired their PF! Wow.. i've not seen that to be honest How about this.. 23m away, (at night in fog) a armored car parks, it sits there for 30 seconds and is in full LOS of a half-squad with a PF. They target it, (I chortle), they watch it.. they keep watching.. 30 seconds later it drives away, nary a shot fired. PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 For von Lucke: Thanks for that info on halftracks versus Fireflies! Bug or not, and perhaps not an honest tactic, but I can't wait to try this out on some Fireflies.. ------------------ "Follow me, and I'll show you where the iron crosses grow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 No, it's true. My German infantry has been firing PF's all along at enemy infantry. I keep yelling, toss the freaking grenades dummy! They do, but they also waste the PF's. The PF units do the same if I tell them to target enemy infantry. That surprised me as I figured they wouldn't do that. Now, the way I see it, the PF units should be firing small arms at infantry not their precious PF ammo. ------------------ "Wer zuerst schiesst hat mehr von Leben" Moto-(3./JG11 "Graf") Bruno Weiss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted October 27, 2000 Author Share Posted October 27, 2000 Hey! Hey! Hey! Where does it say this is the "Let's Bitch About PF's" thread? All whining will be confined to Firefly's vs. Sd Kfz's than-kew veddy much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Steiner Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 Hi 'Doppleganger' ! Two Sgt Steiners on one board could get confusing, any chance you would like to promote your goodself to Cpt Cheers ------------------ Sgt Steiner Belfast NI UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 All Hail the new uber-weapon: Sd Kfz 7/2! Long live the King! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 This left a lingering air of weirdness, so I too set up some QBs with 10 Fireflies and Sherman Easies vs 8 SD Kfzs. 400 Meters, flat map, VL flag in middle, lined up face to face like a scrimmage, no movement plots. It got curioser and curioser. 1-Allied vs Axis AI: Exactly as von Lucke discribed; the tanks fired their mgs and got waxed by the AAs. Lots of Immobs and damaged guns. Usually 3 or fewer destroyed AAs. 2-Axis vs Allied AI. Different story all together! The Allies lose a single Sherman but light up the AAs like roman candles. The tanks appeared to be firing with their main guns, causing many brew-ups, but the aftermath stats show no AP or HE expended. Typically 1 or 2 destroyed tanks vs all the SDs. 3- Hot seat. I only ran this 3 times but now it gets stranger. When the Allies were designated as first player I got result#1, appointing the Germans as first player produced result#2. Before I ran #3, and basing on #1 and #2, it seemed to me like the player and computer were playing with different TacAIs. Now I'm confused. Anybody want to try an explanation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 That is really rather odd. I would love to see some more thoughts on this too. PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 Bump Anybody set up a similiar test bed? We may be dealing with an engine quirk here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 Odd, I've never seen a problem with tanks firing at HTs. In a PBEM game I'm currently playing, I've seen two of my HTs KOd by a Priest. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted October 30, 2000 Share Posted October 30, 2000 Hi... von lucke, Read this topic: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/011399.html In the end of this topic you see that I've run into a wall of silence...hmmm What happened was that your armor only uses HE rounds to kill soft targets... No HE round other then MG fire and you were %%&$#&... MG fire only works on this targets at close ranges. Walter, Yes, I confirm this, in a close fight (50m or less) the German troops use the PF-60 against infantry. On the other hand, I never sow them use the PF-60 at distances more then 30m against armored targets... João [This message has been edited by Tanaka (edited 10-29-2000).] [This message has been edited by Tanaka (edited 10-29-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted October 30, 2000 Author Share Posted October 30, 2000 Just read Tanaka's original thread --- seems I'm not the first one to notice this phenomena. It all seems to come down to what the AI considers an armored or soft target and which weapon system it then uses to engage. Unfortunately, this does not take into account what type of weapon system said "soft" target is engaging with in return... Alexander: Didn't try it from the Wehrmacht side, only from the Allied. I kind of wondered how it would turn out, but I had a hunch that it would be as you described. It does seem as though the Human/AI combo calculates things differently than the AI/AI combo. But should it? Chuppy: We're talkin' 'bout Sd Kfz 7/2's (an unarmored 'track), not the 250 / 251's (which are armored). Plus which, it's an AP ammo utilization issue --- if you used a Priest, I have no doubt yr HT's were KO'd by HE rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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