bunker durability *possible spoiler*

[bauhaus]

First things first, I'm am know where near being an expert, so if I off target, I apologize.

That being said, I'm a little disappointed with the durability of the bunkers in VT. The wood bunkers I understand, but the concrete bunkers, they don't take much more abuse than the wood bunkers. I always thought they could take a lot more punishment, but most of times one good shot from a Sherman or a 105 and they are history. I was playing the AI and lost 2 concrete bunkers on turn one, to shermans.

Is that really how it was, or are they a little less durable in the game for some reason.

This game is incredible, and this is really only a minor complaint, if even that. I was just hoping that the bunkers were a better defensive tool, but they really add to VT being a drastically unbalanced scenario.

[Guest entec]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bauhaus:

First things first, I'm am know where near being an expert, so if I off target, I apologize.

That being said, I'm a little disappointed with the durability of the bunkers in VT. The wood bunkers I understand, but the concrete bunkers, they don't take much more abuse than the wood bunkers. I always thought they could take a lot more punishment, but most of times one good shot from a Sherman or a 105 and they are history. I was playing the AI and lost 2 concrete bunkers on turn one, to shermans.

Is that really how it was, or are they a little less durable in the game for some reason.

This game is incredible, and this is really only a minor complaint, if even that. I was just hoping that the bunkers were a better defensive tool, but they really add to VT being a drastically unbalanced scenario.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should play it several time, I've had bunkers last thourgh tremendous pounding and still take more, and I've also lost bunkers on the first shot from those 105s.

[Mike D]

I've had much less luck knocking out the concrete bunkers w/ the Sherman 105's. I've hit my buddies concrete MG bunker in VoT about 4 times in a row and it didn't knock it out. No apparent damage was done at all as a matter of fact. Of course FOW may not be telling me everything either. Wooden bunkers, yeah they go up pretty easy. One direct hit from Sherman 105, artillery, etc., and they are history.

Mikester out.

[bauhaus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by entec:

You should play it several time, I've had bunkers last thourgh tremendous pounding and still take more, and I've also lost bunkers on the first shot from those 105s.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have played it several times and have yet to see the bunkers make it through turn 10. Maybe I'm expecting too much out of them?

[Guest Big Time Software]

The key thing here is that (according to the story I developed) the US force KNEW the bunkers were there and allocated the necessary forces to deal with them. Namely plenty of artillery (smoke) and the Sherman 105s. If the US did not have either of these things they would be out of luck, just as the mythical company that went in there the day before.

Bunkers/pillboxes were, on an individual basis, knocked out very easily in a setting like VoT. They are largely exposed and are not well screened by other AT defenses and infantry. If the US player does the right things, and has decent luck, knocking them out is almost a sure bet. But screw up your tactics and/or get unlucky... you have problems. I had both my 105s knocked out and I can tell you that taking out the pillbox after that was pretty tough.

The Germans has the most success with fortifications when they were dense and/or placed in wooded areas. You can easily do this in CM if you want. In fact, I could have made a realistic scenario where there is no way in Hell the US force could have done more than minor damage to the German defenses.

The physical weakness of a pillbox is its firing slit. Think of a funnel stuck in a bottle. If you toss a marble at it and miss the funnel you aren't going to get it in the bottle. Period. However, if you manage to get the marble right in there, bingo. It is nearly assured to get into the bottle unless it should happen to hit the wrong way and bounce out of the funnel. That is why the Sherman 105s, and any direct fire weapon, is a pillbox's worst enemy. The pillbox can't do anything but either knock out the enemy gun first or simply pray for divine intervention If an HE round hits the firing slit it is all over for the pillbox since the force of the explosion and shrapnel only has one basic place to go -> into the pillbox. And that means crew casualties and/or damage to the weapon.

In real life knocking out a pillbox didn't necessarily mean succes. You had to physically take it. Reason being that the Gemans would reman then (if possible) and therefore be back in action after a point of time. So sometimes when you hear about a pillbox holding out for a couple of assaults it very well might have been temporarily put out of action and then remaned.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 05-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 05-16-2000).]

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

In real life knocking out a pillbox didn't necessarily mean succes. You had to physically take it. Reason being that the Gemans would reman then (if possible) and therefore be back in action after a point of time. So sometimes when you hear about a pillbox holding out for a couple of assaults it very well might have been temporarily put out of action and then remaned.

Steve

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, great post Steve! Very informative.

Now, speaking of which. During an Operation, can a (concrete) bunker be re-manned if it had only been "abandoned" in the skirmish before? And if so, can you still target an abandoned bunker in hopes of totally knocking it out and/or brewing it? Haven't really tried it in the Demo, really didn't need to of course.

The first time I played VoT, I brewed the AT-Gun bunker with a lucky hit of 105mm Arty only after a portion of a turn. The wooden MG bunkers tend to brew rather easily even with "near" hits/misses.

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"Why don't we say that we took this one chance, and fought!"

"Stupid humans. Hahahahahahaha!"

--from the film Battlefield Earth

[EScurlock]

I took out a bunker and all appearance were that internal explosions blew out the back and set the hex behind it on fire. Is this actually modeled or was it just a cool coincidence?

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He who gets there the fastest with the mostest wins.

[Guest Captain Manieri]

This is kinda OT but my late Grandfather took a picture of a knocked out Pillbox in Manina Di Pisa in 1945. It looks like artillery knocked the crap out of it. The door is blown away and the firing slit roof is crumbled, plus on the left side, the wall is torn away. I'm looking at it right now.

[This message has been edited by Captain Manieri (edited 05-16-2000).]

[Kraut]

IMO the bunkers are knocked out too easily. But of course i didn't do any reseach and have no idea how well bunkers performed in real-life. So it's just an oppinion ...

I would like them to last a little longer. Those shermans with their laser-guided super-guns always knock my bunkers out with a few rounds (that is, after the second or third round the slit is hit and it's game over).

It's probably the scenario though. I've played it several times, so has my opponent, therefore we both know what to expect. If this were a different map and setting the bunkers would probably have greater effect.

MK

[Ash]

Scurlock, samething happened to me the first time i played. The AI was hitting me with 105's so I'm not sure if its the bunker or the shells setting it on fire

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The names Ash, Housewares

[Mark IV]

I've played VoT as Germans twice now, with mixed results. The first time the concrete bunkers got KO'd rather quickly, in very few shots.

The second time, the MG bunker took a terrific pounding from various sources including direct fire at 200m, with lots of "internal flaking" messages. It was wiped in a few turns, but took many, many direct hits before the gun was damaged and the crew bailed.

The AT bunker traded shots with the Sherms for many turns and survived well into the game- the reinforcements finally got one through the view slit, but it took 3 tanks and beaucoup infantry with it. It was placed well back on the big hill, and I'm sure the extra range had something to do with it.

I don't believe I've had one wiped by indirect fire yet.

[Kraut]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

I don't believe I've had one wiped by indirect fire yet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just had a wooden bunker toasted by 105's ... i tell ya, those americans are all wussies. Always call in artillery and air support instead of fighting like real men! ... lol

MK

[Guest GriffinCheng]

From my 3 german experience (not scientific though) concrete bunkers rarely last for more than 3 turns under direct fire. Most kills are due to penetration of concrete but slit shots really make the life short by damaging the gun or simply wiping it out and leaves no survivors. To me, AI seems reluctent to use artillery to KO bunkers.

Of course, it makes no difference when the infantry reaches your backdoor.

Griffin @ work

[Guest Big Time Software]

Kraut,

I don't think we will be making any adjustments. I've played other scenarios with fortifications and I can tell you, if you don't go in with the right weapon mix for the right terrain... forget about it

The thing about bunkers is that they don't move. No laser guided guns needed against a stationary target at 500m Again, the problem here is that the US has 6 direct fire guns vs. the German's one. That right there means the Germans are behind the eight ball. While the US can move about and attack from several angles at once, the Germans are stuck and can not engage more than one target at a time. Plus, smoke allows the US armor to get into position without much fear since the Germans lack AT support (until the Panther comes in)

I have also seen that MG Pillbox take nine total shots and 4 direct hits before being knocked out. It all has to do with chances *and* the circumstances surrounding them. As I said above, this is not the sort of scenario where the German bunkers should be able to hold out for very long. But once you get a hold of the editor you can make your own scenarios to simulate different circumstances where the attacker doesn't have a chance of knocking them out easily.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 05-16-2000).]

[von shrad]

In my game VS. AI my concrete bunkers lasted the whole game. They were repeatedly hit by both direct and indirect fire while taking out MANY targets.

There seems to be a wide range of possibilities with unit survival. That is what is going to make this game great, and a little hard to balance custom scenarios IMO.

Von Shrad