Historical issues.

[jim crowley]

First, a word of thanks to BTS and the playtesters for not only producing the finest wargame ever but also for demonstrating their ongoing commitment to excellence, through continual honing of the system (five patches already and still counting!)

The greater majority of tweaks and additions, thus far, relate to game-play issues, as of course they should, but there are a few areas, which might be regarded as less important, relating to historical accuracy.

Some, if not all, have been previously posted in one form or another, either by myself or others and all of them are based purely on my opinions and preferences; so feel free to disregard or disagree.

1. British (and Polish and Canadian, I think) ranking puts companies in the charge of a Major; battalions in the charge of a Lt-Colonel.

2. On battlefields the size of those found in CM (even the largest ones) it would be a very rare occurrence to find a mixture of Churchill, Sherman, Cromwell and Stuarts at the same time, as can easily happen in Quick Battles where the computer picks the units. This is not a problem with German units, as they tended towards ad-hoc formations and battle-groups, at this stage of the war particularly. However, the British armoured formations, divisions or brigades, were equipped with but one type of main battle tank. Thus you would only have either Churchills or Shermans ( with Stuarts and /or cromwells from the recon. Elements) but not both.

3. In the QB generator it is possible to choose, or have chosen, conscript troops in every category (including parachute troops, although the manual suggests otherwise). This seems to be highly un-historical. IMO no allied troops should be choosable as conscripts (“third line troops” with “little or no training”) at all, and only a limited number of categories of troop types should be available to the German player ( Infantry and possibly support troops and possibly only Heer troops at that). Even in the closing stages of the war, Germans would not have used conscript aviators, tankcrew or artillerists, who by definition, require training.

Cheers

Jim

[David Aitken]

jim crowley wrote:

> 1. British (and Polish and Canadian, I think) ranking puts companies in the charge of a Major; battalions in the charge of a Lt-Colonel.

I've been wondering about this. Can't give you any evidence, but it does seem that British formations carry the same rankings as Americans, which I suspect is inaccurate.

> 3. In the QB generator it is possible to choose, or have chosen, conscript troops in every category (including parachute troops, although the manual suggests otherwise).

I've noticed that you can't choose Allied conscripts. I would agree that you shouldn't get conscript Fallschirmjäger.

David

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[Chupacabra]

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[Theron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

jim crowley wrote:

> 1. British (and Polish and Canadian, I think) ranking puts companies in the charge of a Major; battalions in the charge of a Lt-Colonel.

I've been wondering about this. Can't give you any evidence, but it does seem that British formations carry the same rankings as Americans, which I suspect is inaccurate.

David

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read on another thread that they kept all the allied armies with the same command structure as the Americans to make it simpler for people unfamilar with WWII command structures. The discusion in the other thread was about why some historical british offiers were of the incorrect rank in senerios.

Theron

[This message has been edited by Theron (edited 08-27-2000).]

[M Hofbauer]

jc,

do you know a bit about british ranks? because, I am insearch of someone who does for the rankpage. I have found people to ask things etc. for every army from Bulgaria to chinese, but I couldn't find anyone familiar with the british.

besides that, I think your points 1 and 2, however well and justified they might or might not be, will simply not be addressed in a patch. when BTS intentionally kept the ranks as tzhey are now, I don't think they will change it now, even if they could; you see, this had been discussed before.

as regards point 3, I think you and David are partly wrong. the germans in the ending stages of ww 2 _DID_ put conscripts in about every imaginable position. there were instances where fighter aircraft pilots received as much (or as little) as 6 hours of ground instruction as their training, and their first flight with the Me would be their first combat sortie. similarly, the large bodies of hitlerjugend were directly used for the He-162 program, they didn't even start to sort out for talent to fly; i admit though that the he-162 program did not realize before the surrender.

similarly, paratroop units were often not beter than other units towards the end of the war where every kind of recruits, maintenance personnel, etc. were put in uniform, and some of these were paratrooper uniforms. the usual practice of having paratroopers jump-qualify at that time had been abandoned for almost quite some time already, for obvious reasons.

just my 2 turkish lira,

M.Hofbauer

[Christov]

Also the Comet tank was equiped with a 77mm gun not a 76mm. Just a little thing I noticed.

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Christov:

Also the Comet tank was equiped with a 77mm gun not a 76mm. Just a little thing I noticed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was a 17pdr/7,62 cm gun, which had been heavily modified to fit in the Comet relatively small turret. The designation of 77mm stems from the new shortened cartridge that it fired. The new designation insured that incompatible standard 17pdr/7,62 cm cartridges were not issued to Comet mounted units and the ensuing hilarity when the full charge caused the gun to recoil thru the rear of the turret. So it fired the same shell/shot (7,62 cm) but the casing containing the charge was smaller and together formed a short cartridge.

[This message has been edited by Bastables (edited 08-27-2000).]

[M Hofbauer]

christoph - you're kidding, right?

I mean, that was a joke, right, you're not serious, eh?

(IF NOT: that 77mm is just symbolic, it had the same caliber as the 17pdr/76mm, so in order to make life easier for the supply guys etc. (and to make life harder on semi-enlightened postwar historians) they CALLED it the 77mm .... )

[Christov]

Sorry for my ignorance but, that is what I have read. Some books arn't just that accurate.

[Los]

"2. On battlefields the size of those found in CM (even the largest ones) it would be a very rare occurrence to find a mixture of Churchill, Sherman, Cromwell and Stuarts at..(snipped for brevity)"

Absolutely not true, and one need look no farther than Villers-Bocage for a good example of this.

The 22d Armored Bde forces involved in the fighting that day included Cromwell IVs, Sherman IICs and Sherman VC Fireflies from the 4th CLY (tank squadrons would have a platoon of fireflies and the rest Cromwells at the time, normally) as well as Stuarts from the 4th CLY recce troop. Also mixed in with the formation were recon elements from the 8th and 11th Hussars w/ Humbar and Damlier scout cars. Then the infantry units and BDE support units had a mixture of M5 halftracks, universal carriers, trucks and what not. The RHA units had a mix of Sherman and Cromwell FO tanks. So it very much was a mishmash of different vehicles, a regular travelling bazaar.

Even in units where there was more homogeneity (sp?) of TOE you can't forget the "slice elements" that would be task organized under TF control for any given operation, which bring in an assortment of other vehicles.

Cheers...

Los

[Rattus]

The "77mm" was originally called the "High Velocity 75mm" & later renamed the "77mm". It was a cut down 17pdr of 49 claibres (viz 55 claibres for the 17pdr). It also used a shorter chamber firning the reduced charge.

Penetration comparison was 109mm viz 120mm @ 30 degrees & 500 yards.

[This message has been edited by Rattus (edited 08-28-2000).]