Opponents knowledge of immobilised tanks

[Kanonier Reichmann]

I thought I would raise this topic as it struck me as very odd that my PBEM opponent queried in one of his posts to me whether there was a "buggy" turn as he noticed my Allied tank was immobilised mid turn yet it hadn't moved at all. I explained there was no bug but it had simply immobilised itself very early in our game before he spotted the tank some turns later.

My query is this...how the hell do enemy troops KNOW that an opposing tank IS immobilised when they are some 300 to 400 metres away & the damn thing is firing at them & facing in the right direction towards them (frontal facing- sheer luck I may add). I mean, there is no way the opponent would have seen it become immobilised as it happenned behind a very large copse of tall pines well into my side of the map with no line of sight to anything UNTIL a unit moves to a position roughly parrallel to its position. Do tank commanders raise large flags stating "No Fair...I'm immobilised so don't pick on me" or something? It just seemed so odd that as soon as the enemy infantry spotted the tank at a reasonable distance my opponent knew immediately it was immobilised.

Has anybory else stuck this & are there any reasonable explanations out there to account for it. Any thoughts on this subject would be greatly appreciated!

Regards

Jim R.

[Fred]

A thrown tread, broken wheels, etc...

And if a tank does not turn to meet a threat...

Fred

------------------

"I got signals, I got readings, in front and behind of us!" - PFC Hudson on LV-426 mission

[Guest Germanboy]

Binoculars come to mind. Tread thrown, drive sprocket wheel shot off, crew dandling around outside trying to get it going again, all these things you would probably be able to see even at longer distances.

------------------

Andreas

[aka_tom_w]

Again I would say this is an "enhanced fog of war" issue, there are other issues like can you know the experience level of opposing troops.

Should you be able to know the extend of the damage you have inflicted to an opposing tank.

(yes if you have LOS and can see that damage with Binocs, but NO you should not know, if the damage is caused by Arty or Airstrikes and no ground units have LOS to that unit.)

I would like to suggest another setting beyond full fog of war to something beyond full fog of war, and call it it "Enhanced Fog of War" or "Beyond Full Fog or War"

or Dare I suggest...

"Close to Realistic Fog Of War"

anyway

There are some of us here would like more Fog of War and as much of it as realistically possible.

I still think this game is GREAT! I'm always thrilled when I have units being shot at and I can't tell where the fire is coming from. This game is GREAT in that sometimes AFV's get KO'd and you have NO idea where the shot or round came from. This kind of FOW is most welcome here as it is new and fun feature that keeps commanders on their toes.

Bring on the next level of Beyond Full Fog of War!

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 08-11-2000).]

[Fuse]

It has been my experience that FOW works relatively well as far as kills by air and arty are concerned. In a QB against the AI my air support came in one the first turn and blasted one of the enemy tanks behind some trees, out of LOS. I heard the explosion and saw black smoke drifting into the air, but those were the only signs of a kill. Didn't learn until I had run the AI off the map what I'd hit.

------------------

Upon the fields of friendly strife, are sown the seeds of Victory.

---Douglas McArthur

[M Hofbauer]

Interesting point about immobilization, and LOL about the rising of a no fair sign

But here is something realted but much worse & more unrealistic. How does the enemy know that it's a "green", "regular", veteran" or "elite" crew? Because the UI will show this info about enemy vehicles (and infantry) as soon as they are identified (another mysery ahem mystery is the precise identification of enemy vehicles down to the n-th subvariant, my favorite example is the correct diferentiation between "W" wet ammo storage and regular variants pof the Sherman).

Now please DON'T tell me that veteran american crews sandbagged their vehicles and such stuff, because in most cases tghere is no difference, on the outward, between a regular and a veteran vehicle, because it is a quality value of the crew.

It is a very important piece of information that in reality the opponent qwould NOT have.

[Buckeye]

Well, I hate to sound like a grouch, but this topic has been discussed extensively before. BTS has presented pretty cogent reasons for the ability of units to discern characteristics such as whether an AFV is immobilized or the quality of opposing troops. I'd suggest you use the mighty "search" tool to avoid being doomed to repeat history.

------------------

"Don't lie to me, Gustav! You're a stinkin' Mac user!"

[DEF BUNGIS]

Let's not get to crazy about this FOW thing.

Yes I think there should be some tweaks.

But troops for the most part can tell what type of enemy they are facing after the first couple of close engagements. That is under 200-300 meters. Leaders generally had a little intelligence update before heading out on a mission.

A tank immobilized sticks out like a sore thumb on the battle field, even a tank bogging down can be seen from a great distance.

------------------

Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all

[Uedel]

U sure soon can tell if a Vehicle crew is green or Veteran or Elite. It is the way it holds fire how he is aiming and reacting on threads that tells u damn that are though cracks or damn that idiots must be totaly green.

[Fuse]

I realize that I'm speaking completely out of my solid excrement chute, but weren't forces often aware of who they were fighting before the action? If so this might account for them knowing the level of forces they faced. Bear in mind that this is coming from someone who's military history is based primarily in fictional books.

------------------

Upon the fields of friendly strife, are sown the seeds of Victory.

---Douglas McArthur

[M Hofbauer]

sorry everybody, my silly fault. I forgot that of course before every engagement the men were handed intel sheets about the enemy such as these:

--------

you will be facing units of the 1. Zug, 2. Kompanie II/710 of 352.InfDiv, together with one Panther G (late) from 2. Zug, 1 Kompanie I/309 2. PzDiv, two PaK 40 7.5cm from PzJäg Abt.38, 2.PzDiv (...) . The crews and vehicles are set up as follows:

vehicles with respective identification numbers

#311: SdKfz 251/1 with veteran crew

#312: SdKfz 251/1 with green crew fresh out of training

#313: SdKfz 251/8 with crack crew

(...)

for your conveniance, because these numbers are only painted on the side of the vehicles, the enemy has been instructed to have large signs attached onto 10-foot poles affixed onto the vehicles with the vehicle number written in 3 feet high letters, to be read from the front and the rear.

immobilized vehicles will have a bright orange flashlight activated.

since infantry squads, due to replacement and losses ranging in experience from conscript to elite, do not carry identification numbers but of course you still have a legitimate interest in knowing their experience level, they have been told to periodically shout out aloud their respective experience level every 10 seconds.

---------

later in the war, the famous "rainbow" color-code system was introduced that helped the enemy to identify correctly and fast the respective experience level from large colored bands painted around the vehicles, similarly the helmets of infantry squads were painted in the respective experience level color.