Kraut Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 Grrrrr ... what the hell is this? Weenie little 2 inch mortars taking out my scout cars with more precision than an AT gun?! Since when do brits have laser-guided mortar-bombs? BTS, could you tone this top penetration business down a little ... no, wait a LOT. This is insane! I'm using the 1.03 patch btw ... Kraut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 If it can happen in real life, it can happen in the game. Although it may be difficult to hit them, if a mortar does (don't know about a two inch though) it will penetrate if the armour is thin enough. The solution isn't to make mortars weaker on vehicles, but to improve the TacAI to avoid metal rain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 If i where on a open top vehicle and it started raining explosives I'd probably bug the hell out too. If i where in a tiger I'd probably pull out a nice book and wait until the storm clears. ------------------ The names Ash, Housewares Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 I believe all German AC are open top except for the Puma. While most of these AC's turrets did have a wire mesh screen across the top, it was only designed to keep out hand grenades. A well aimed mortar bomb could (and will) take one out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 Still, I wouldn't want a handgrenade sitting on top of my wire mesh over my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civdiv Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 A one-time occurance is not a strike against the game system. If it just happened once, than it's a lucky hit. I would expect a 50mm HE rounds to kill a AC. The crux of the issue is if it accurs with too great a frequency. Gamers are now aware of this issue, we will just have to keep an eye out. Agreed, it is a one in a million shot. civdiv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybeq Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 It's not a "one-in-a-million" shot. The Scout car is an open topped vehicle and it's got thin armor to boot. Add to that the assumption of the 2-inch mortar being direct-fired at the Scout car and you have the recipe for a brew-up. When I play CM I use direct-fire mortars against anything open-topped and stationary. It seems to be modeled realistically to me. ------------------ "To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence." -Sun Tzu, The Art Of War Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted July 30, 2000 Author Share Posted July 30, 2000 Well, it doesn't seem to be "modelled realistically" to me, whatever the hell that means. Those two inch mortars are more friggin dangerous than a piat or AT gun at close range. I can't tell you how often my 75mm vet paks have missed shermans at no more than 100m (ohh, and the paks were not fired at and missed the first two rounds, then were sent straight to hell). But the two inch mortars seem to find their mark every single time after only a few rounds. It didn't happen once, it didn't happen twice, it happened so many times i just stopped counting. Why did the allies even need bazookas if they could use the two inch mortar (or the 60mm) as a light AT weapon? Judging by the rate at which my scout cars get grilled by them in CM, i can assume they didn't. I can assume they only made billions of them just to make some contractor rich ... lol All i'm asking is that BTS reevaluate the frequency of the top knock out hits on scout cars and HT's, by little two inch mortars (i'll accept the fact that my light AFV's are toast under a heavy 81mm or greater barrage). MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 Yesterday I took out a PzIV with a 2" mortar. Haven't seen that happen before, so no problem. Mortars were accurate enough to hit a car given some time. And the grenades were big enough to knock out light vehicles. IMO this wasn't the way tanks and cars were routinely destroyed. The problem, in my opinion is that the AI doesn't tell the car to bugger off when grenades start falling. I think there are some problems in how to do this running to safety. If the car can't see who is shooting, it doesn't know where a safer place would be. Jarmo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybeq Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 "Modelled realistically" means that the results of a battle or exchange of fire in the game of Combat Mission closely approximate what would happen in "real" life. Hence the term, "realistic". You could substitute the word "programmed" for the word "modelled" and end up with the same meaning. I must admit that I did not fight in WWII and have never ridden in a scout car or even come under 2 inch mortar fire but it just seems logical that if a hand grenade could take out an open-topped vehicle then certainly an aerodynamic explosive projectile falling from great height and scoring a direct hit could render said vehicle combat ineffective. ------------------ "To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence." -Sun Tzu, The Art Of War Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by civdiv: A one-time occurance is not a strike against the game system. If it just happened once, than it's a lucky hit. I would expect a 50mm HE rounds to kill a AC. The crux of the issue is if it accurs with too great a frequency. Gamers are now aware of this issue, we will just have to keep an eye out. Agreed, it is a one in a million shot. civdiv<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Lets see in the last 2 days playing my brave lil 81mm crews in QBs have destroyed around 22 HTs, 9 AC's, 8 mortars, & caused about 7 inf casualties . The low Inf casualties stem from the AI giveing priority targeting to AFVs, & mortar crews as I have watched the crews switch off an Inf squad's 100 - 120ms away to engage an HT at 550ms & a mortar at 430ms. Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOCHEN PEIPER Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 Head over to this site... http://www.history.enjoy.ru/destroyed/german.html You will see what a arty barrage can do to the biggest of tanks... King Tigers even. ------------------ Quote. If you see a white plane it's American, if you see a black plane it's the RAF. If you see no planes at all it's the Luftwaffe." ---German soldier on the Western Front, 1944. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mirage2k Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Why did the allies even need bazookas if they could use the two inch mortar (or the 60mm) as a light AT weapon? Judging by the rate at which my scout cars get grilled by them in CM, i can assume they didn't. I can assume they only made billions of them just to make some contractor rich ... lol<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They needed them because light mortars don't do much against tanks. Seriously, I don't really see a problem. If a mortar team has LOS to a stationary vehicle, I'd expect them to be able to put their rounds down fairly accurately. A direct hit against even a Sherman won't do much, but against those soft, open-topped scout cars and halftracks a near-miss can be quite damaging. -Andrew ------------------ Throw me a frickin' smiley, people! Your one-stop-shop for gaming news is www.SiegersPost.com ! Hit it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mirage2k: Seriously, I don't really see a problem. If a mortar team has LOS to a stationary vehicle, I'd expect them to be able to put their rounds down fairly accurately.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, it's not really that big a problem, I lose 'em to mortars, but so do my opponents, it doesn't affect balance. The thing is, (as far as I know) in WWII light tanks and heavy armored cars weren't usually killed by mortars, but by AT guns, zooks, tanks and such. In CM, they are. So something makes mortars unrealistically effective. I have my theory and I've stated it above. (OK, it's not my theory, I read it from this forum) ------------------ Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianc Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 "A direct hit against even a Sherman won't do much" Ha! Killed a Sherman with an 81 mm. top hit yesterday! ianc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iconoclast Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kraut: Well, it doesn't seem to be "modelled realistically" to me, whatever the hell that means. MK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think it's the accuracy that's off. I'm in the early stages of a PBEM on a maximum sized map (1600m wide x 3200m deep), and the only casualties my advancing force has suffered so far are to armored cars that appear to have been picked off ON THE MOVE by medium mortar fire. I'll see one or two craters appear in the vicinity of the target vehicle, then BOOM. I've started zig-zagging and varying my recce units' speed even more than usual (though I hate using "fast" when contact is imminent), but it's better than losing these vehicles to "death from above". When we're farther into the game so that it isn't a leading question, I'll ask my opponent if he can confirm that those vehicle kills were indeed inflicted by mortars. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 Ever see the top armor on a tank - even a modern one? It's pretty thin (often less than an inch). I'd hate to be the guinea pig sitting in the turret during a top penetration-test of a 60mm mortar You'd really be screwed if you were upbuttoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted July 31, 2000 Author Share Posted July 31, 2000 People, 1) i'm not talking about a mortar barrage. I'm talking about a little piss 2-inch mortar decimating my entire friggin force. 2) I'm not talking about *IF* it is possible for a 60mm or 2-inch to kill a scout car or HT, i'm talking about the insane hit-chances these suckers have. Laser-guided weenie-bombs that take out everything i own. Ohh, and it's not just vehicles that are standing, the mortars tend to hit moving targets just a good. The hit chance should be toned down a good deal, 'cause this just isn't right. Kraut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dittohead Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 Hey Jochen most of those pictures are from the lake Balaton offensive. Since the ruskies took the pictures I would be suspect on the actual cause of the tanks demise. Most probably were abandoned for lack of fuel then destroyed by the rukies in target practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 I'm afraid I have to weigh in on the side of Kraut on this one. The problem, I think, is not necessarily the accuracy of the mortars, but the fact that HT's etc. take no sort of evasive action (ie the TacAi doesn't step in). I am rather fond of the German 251/9 which carries a 75mm gun. Since I use them frequently (in Quick Battles) I have noted that they are almost always destroyed by mortar fire. In fact, I would go so far as to say that whenever I have observed an HT under mortar fire, it has died (Top Penetration). They (the HT's) just sit there and complacently watch mortar rounds walk torwards them, then Kaboom. IMHO something is out of kilter. On an OT note, just saw and F-86 flying around in the Warbirds show at the EAA today, it may be time to reinstall Mig Alley Regards, The Dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parson Larson Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 I too think mortars are far too accurate. I can see the occasional hit. But, these things fire with the same accuracy as direct fire weapons! I have never read that they were that accurate. Has anyone on this board fired a mortar? Is this a realistic modeling of this weapon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 Without having any hard info, I'd have to say I don't think it's so much an accuracy issue as the point that's been raised about light armour and the TacAI not reacting to them. I watch my mortars lay down direct LOS fire on foxholes, and they get a nice little pattern around it. And an AFV, even just an AC or HT are relatively large targets. ------------------ After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 Also, I the mortars don't need a direct hit to take out the HTs, shrapnel can and will cause a crew to abandon Armored Cars and HTs (in which case, I think they will be marked as abandonned, not destroyed). That being said, I agree with the others (and have brought it up previously) that the TacAI needs to do something when these vehicles come under mortar fire, instead of just sitting there and waiting to die. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianc Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 I'm not convinced that an AI adjustment will cure the problem. I just finished playing the Mortain op and my 81 mm mortars were averaging 3 shots to get a top hit on the Ami halftracks. This happened at least 7X in the three battles I played. I've never fired a mortar, but I just can't believe you can hit a targe the size of a smallish vehicle with a mortar from 500 m on the third shot! Wish my 88's had that kind of hit percentage... ianc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 Just wanted to pipe in and let you know that I'll check into this issue. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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