Chance Encounter, what were the odds?

[Guest Bobb]

I suppose I could NOT care less, after all it was only a virtual death or 5. But, damn, when 5 Shermans in defensive positions, out of enemy LOS until they blundered into view or even worse never obtained LOS get killed, Well, one of them fell to a panzerfaust so it was really only four, but my feelings were 10. Minus 10.

I watched a Sherman move as ordered to a position where it was up hill with a wonderful view of the flank of a Stug. The Sherman barely had time to get a shot off (and the Stug off) while the Stug ponderously rotated to face the Sherman and got most of the way there. I was surprised.

I had another Stug moving near LOS of another Sherman. I moved the Sherman slightly to complete the sight picture, it did not have to move its turrent but slightly. The Stug had time to rotate the whole vehicle and get in the first telling shot.

Another Stugg moved into the LOS of a third Sherman. They were about even with their starting positions in order to bring weapons to bear. But, as it seems every time that contest is tested, the Stug is able to rotate its entire mass faster than the Sherman can rotate its turrent, and get in the first shot virtually failure free.

Number 4 Sherman held its position well hidden behind a wooden building. The Stugg calmly rotated face the wooden building and put a shot right through it into the Sherman. Now how nice, the Stugg had not a worry in the world being well hidden (as if it really needed hiding) and all the leasure required to place that terribly effective shot.

As there was a G.I. unit in the building I suppose that may have been the actual target. But why would the Stugg use armor piercing ammo on the infantry unit? Out of HE? Not likely.

But why time after time the Stugs can traverse their whole vehicle faster and get in first shot with out missing or failing while the Sherman can not bring its gun to bear or fire the first shot. And fireing it rarely enough, cannot hit or penitrate. One on one even with the advange of position Shermans seem most often second best.

This is mostly close up stuff as I speed the Shermans up the road to take up hidden positions behind houses.

Now of course it could not be a matter of my injured ego having been led down the primrose path by successfully positioning the tanks so as to be able to enflade approaching Stuggs using one vehicle or the other. What a wonderful feeling of superiority and control as the German AFVs came lumbering into my web of AT rounds at the ready. I think the crews shoved the AT rounds up the wrong breach. The commanders did bulge their eyes just before dying. But, of course that might have been fear alone.

Oh, yes I did attempt to do harm to one Stugg with a couple of Bazooka teams in the church. That is a lot of rockets to send out and not shake hands with their target.

After reading a lot of explanations from those,who have been close and personal with the guts of the CM about simular examples, I have to defer to their LOS on these matters. It is still difficult for me when I see a that damned German rotate through 90

degrees and get in first shot while the loader of the Sherman is loading up the commander. I thought Shermans could really move those turrents and pop in those shells.

Or should I direct my feelings at the AI? Has the fuzz from the logic caught on some gear in my computer?

I go back with resolve to do it all over again, surely the fuzz can work both ways to give me back my personal sense of command.

[Moon]

There are so many variables in this game that it is hard to find an "explanation" of what you experienced. It could very well be that there is none and that there is some bug in the beta demo source code. But I'd like to point out a couple of things which might help in the fundamental understanding of situations like these.

Moving units - especially moving tanks, and especially ast moving units - have a narrow arc in front of them in which they have the slightest chance of spotting an enemy. The fact that you as the player are able to see a unit does not mean that your tank is - EVEN if it indeed is within LOS! In other words - although a unit might be within LOS it is not automatically spotted by a particular unit. (In the full version you are able to see spotting arcs using the TARGET command a little better than in the beta demo, btw)

Stationary units, on the other hand, are able to spot in more or less a 360° arc, slightly better in the direction of their facing, though. So a stationary StuG might have a better chance of spotting a Sherman moving into LOS on its flank than the Sherman seeing the StuG (and do not forget - the Sherman has to spot the StuG also. Although the player might know that it's there, the Sherman crew doesn't.)

Of course being buttoned up, fired at or engaging other targets has an important impact on a unit's spotting abilities, too.

Short note on what happened to Sherman number 4 - IIRC there is a bug in the beta demo with regard to buildings. Something like this should not occurr in the full version.

Anyway, just a few thoughts which might shade some light - or not.

[Guest Captain Foobar]

Hearing these tales of wild German successes in CE is giving me hope!

I've played 2 pbem's as Chance Encounter, as Germans, and lost the tank duel both times. I find that the Stug crews are pretty good at getting off an early shot, but you could read Crime & Punishment in the time it takes to get a second shot off.

Both times my opponent (Allies) formed up his 5 Shermans in a loose wedge formation about 400 yds away from Stug Ridge, but beyond the Stone wall. Sure I killed a number of Shermans as I came over the ridge to fire with the Stugs, but their hellacious rate of fire, from 5 platforms was enough to overcome it. Once I lose the protection of the Stugs, I know that I am not long for this world. I know that there is always hope, and that Panzerschrecks can save the day, 200 rounds worth of American HE is usually enough to rob me of my life precious.

[This message has been edited by Captain Foobar (edited 03-21-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Bad luck. If you read through the dozens of posts about CE games you will find just as many people griping about how their StuGs, in hull down ambush positions, are snuffed out by moving Shermans without a friendly shot fired. Play enough games and you are bound to get a whole range of different results.

Steve

[Guest Bobb]

Well as good as my word I did virtually (there's that word again)the same thing. This time I scored 92 8 with something like 45 causuaties and Herman got away with under 20. The guy surrendered before I could round all of 'em up.

This time. my boys shot the Stugs through the buildings and his third apparantly bogged and threw a track trying to move to a flanking position. Halted in mid run in a most awkward position, He suffered the fate.

I checked the building thing with LOS tool and found I could see through the corner of the buildings a lot of the time being right next to them. I suspect they block the LOS well enough if you are not too close.

Yeah, well, oh crap. What can I say. Steve has a point or two does he not? That fuzz from the logic just must have caught in my throat. After writing that initial topic post my cheek was a bit sore from the tonguing it got. I have to admit that there is a lot of satisfaction in totally squashing the opposition. --- and something especially contrary in the opposite. I get a surrender most of the time. That ain't bragging 'cause I should by this point. That is what rubbed my hair backwards so much on the previous. One thing Steve, when in the presence of the enemy I rarely dash about the battlefield. My dead Shermans should have had at least an equal chance at spotting.

Foobar, Germans seem to do pretty well when you hide out and let the Panzerfausts work for their living. I have put the Stugs over on the extreem German left and dashed them up to the woods so they can take a few potshots and bash infantry trying to flank the church. One time I had 5 Shermans lined up in a circle, all dead on that little promitory sticking out from the woods at the Church. Took 'em piecemeal as the dumbasses kept coming up one at a time trying to see what was causing all the trouble.

They need a little infantry flank protection over there.

Moon, I have flipped enough coins to see runs of one result show up a surprising number of times in succession. I think my boys had an equal or better chance of doing the Stugs, but the AIs fuzz just landed with the other side as Steve suggested. I think the Stuggs do seem to do a little better than circumstances suggest they should. In that first run, the only one I got was running across the wheatfields and was broad ass on to my line of fire. How those guys could see something over where I was is more than I can deduce. Several hundred yards away, and they going hell for leather to get into my rear echelon stuff like MGs and Morters to say nothing about the objective flag in the woods there by the road. He saw old Sherman as it hefted into view around the church, then started rotating. I was just sitting there as still as my Sherman while that damned Stug turned and turned. Just as I was gritting my teeth to stand the shot surely coming, the Sherman shocked me with beating him to it.

Such is war.

[killmore]

I had a sherman that missed my StuG at 28 meters. By the end of the game the StuG killed 5 shermans, 3 mortars and 13 infantry... Got picture to prove it.

Game started really bad for me!

My first StuG had its gun damaged in turn 2.

I moved it back to support infantry with its MG.

My second stug was killed on turn 4 by sherman even if it was hull down. It also missed two shots at that sherman.

Sherman then tried to get my damaged sherman by running over the hill between the left most flag and the church. While firing at my damaged stug it moved into range of my last undamaged Stug. First kill.

No idea why mortar team showed up at the edge of the forest - stuG killed it quickly.

At that point of time another Sherman jumped over the hill trying to kill my disabled stug. It killed it and then fired the shot at my hero stug while it was rotating. MISSED at 28 meters. Stug killed it.

Two shermans showed up in the sparse trees near the flag. Supported by lots of infantry. I called artilery strike at them.

I bet that strike damaged both shermans !

Lots of my infantry engaged the Amis (from the left). I moved my hero stug up the hill toward the flag. Amis infantry was busy trying to survive my infantrys attack.

Sherman in the sparse tries was "Unidentified vehicle". No matter I killed it on the second shot. It never fired at me. At that point the second sherman just took off toward the edge of the map where amis started the game. WHY? I dont know.

Mean while StuG killed mortar team right beside the flag.

German infantry cleared up the rest of the area. Flag was mine. Infantry also noticed the Sherman at the edge of the map (Sparse trees in the US deployment area). I moved my stug slowly forward into something close to hull down position and it killed sherman on the first shot. Sherman never fired at me.

Now there were very few US forces left. I rushed my StuG toward the edge of the map where Sherman that paniced was. I was just standing the with its back to me and its turret facing forward. It had to see StuG approaching and it did NOTHING. StuG killed it with first shot.

Now there were just couple of US teams left in the middle of the map in sparse tries. StuG killed the with no problems (mortar included).

Amis surrendered. Only 9 amer soldiers survived! About 150 German soldiers survived.

[This message has been edited by killmore (edited 03-21-2000).]

[Guest GriffinCheng]

Running PEBM CE against Lewis (with handle Username) as German. From my bad (and frustrating) experiences in using STuGs, I am not hoping my STuGs would survive any how. I have already lost 2 STuGs and in the process in losing the 3rd one.

I would not have any bad feelings about them.

The first lost of spectular, it was hit first but the shell bounced. STuG shot also bounded off the Sherman. STuG was hit again but no damaged was done. It was finally finsihed when moving forward to lay smoke! However, I maange to have US lost 2 Shermans to STuGs and Lewis is even moving his 4th Sherman from my right to left to ensure my panzers would do no further harm.

Come and get them, Lewis!

Definitely my STuGs have worthed more than they were call for and have toppled the balance of the game.

Bob, you are giving everybody hope on their STuG in CE.

Griffin @ work (?)

[This message has been edited by GriffinCheng (edited 03-21-2000).]

[Username]

Griffster

I think the panzerschreck helped when it immobilized that sherman so it was a sitting duck for the stug. I am waiting for the last stug to get KOed so I can bottle up all your infantry on the wooded hill.

Lewis

[Guest Bobb]

Great descriptions guys, What a variety of action. I foolishly was encouraged by that last result of mine. On attempting a repeat,the Shermans performed the best I have seen them do as far as running towards their positions without butting up against each other and slowing deployment. All to no avail. The Stuggs got two for one with out my tanks even reaching their positions in which they were hidden. Then here came on of the remaining Stugs right down the road to the church where one tank was hidden and the two others were behind buildings nearby. I had 3 Bazooka teams upstairs in the church. All kinds of hits but no kills.

That SOB was spotted by one of the tanks hiding behind the buildings as he came on. Instead of using the round to hole him, the Sherman fired smoke and backed up. I sent him back because either that smoke would clear or the Stug would move. With Bazookas and tanks stalking I should have had a field day. Not so. The worst the bazookas forced on the Stug was to make him fire smoke once. I glanced back at my hunting tank and he was screwing around broadside to the Stugg who had moved. No amount of Bazooka interference could bother that inperturble bastard driving that Stugg. He just popped my tank and kept on about his business. He got the other building hider and I said screw it. Player morale went to bottom rung and he quit. Next time dammit.

[Guest Big Time Software]

From Bobb:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I checked the building thing with LOS tool and found I could see through the corner of the buildings a lot of the time being right next to them. I suspect they block the LOS well enough if you are not too close.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, that is a bug we fixed a while ago. Corners in some conditions were not being treated properly.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>My dead Shermans should have had at least an equal chance at spotting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In theory they do, but there are circumstances that can swing this one way or another. Some have already been mentioned by others, but there is another one. Spotting is based, in part, on the vehicle's silhouette. The StuG has a definate advantage here. Remember, just because you see the enemy tank doesn't mean your tankers do. Obviously there are so many factors I can't speculate on what happened in your game, but I am sure this came into play.

Also, rotating a tank's frontage is a realistically quick way to traverse the gun. Notice that stationary turreted tanks tend to do this to aid turret rotation speed. The StuG has no choice and that is a disadvantage in all but stationary ambush situations. So if you meet a StuG in such a position you are meeting it in its most deadliest stance. Expect not so good results from your boys

Steve

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Also, rotating a tank's frontage is a realistically quick way to traverse the gun. Notice that stationary turreted tanks tend to do this to aid turret rotation speed. The StuG has no choice and that is a disadvantage in all but stationary ambush situations. So if you meet a StuG in such a position you are meeting it in its most deadliest stance. Expect not so good results from your boys

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe Whittman was first a stug commander before his tiger days and he used to have the tiger drivers "face the threat" in a tiger just like he did in a stug. It allows the main weapon to rapidly combine its rotation with the vehicle rotation to get on target and to get the armor between you and the enemy.

BTW He also kept his scissor range finders from his stug days and put them to use in his tigers like the sturmartillerie he used to be.

Lewis

PS Stugs shoot and scoot. Not stick around to face the music.

[Username]

PPS Chance Encounter is a meeting engagement in most peoples definition. Stugs are really ambush or overwatch weapons. Not too well suited to the meeting engagement task. Shermans being pursuit weapons are very well suited, especially since no "real" armor is present and the sherm 75mm can take on the enemy aussault guns.

I think the germans should initially have:

1x234Puma (cause its fast and cooool)

1xHetzer (its a hull-down freaking shield MAAAANNNN!!!)

Reinforcements after say turn 4:

1xPanzerIVJ

1x251w75L24

This hodgepodge would not be that untypical in the last days of the war and would showcase different armor types. The Hetzer would initially blunt sherman willy nilly tactics and the reinforcements would solidify things).

Lewis

[Guest GriffinCheng]

Lewis,

As in previous thread about CE tactics. The balancing uints of German would be the shrecks, not the STuGs. In current OOB for CE, I think the Amis has too many zooks in this case (sorry Bobb ). I am thinking if CE is modified according to your suggestion, there should be less German infrantries. I think the terrian presented in CE pretty favaors panzer duels.

I am writing carefully not to expose my plan for you.

Griffin @ work.

[Username]

Griffgeshuetz

Ahhhhh you are lulling me into a sense of false contentment by losing all the stugs and FO81mm? Here weedhopper snatch the AP round out of my palm..only then can you leave the temple....

Lewis

[Lee]

Weedhopper? I like that, hehe. Must be a translation thing.

The meaning is the same, though.

[Username]

yes I know its grasshopper

[Woody]

I have had difficulty with CE as the Germans myself. Usually, I loose my Stugs in the first few turns and I throw in the towel!

However, on the fourth attempt, I decided to continue after losing three Stugs by turn 5. I decided I would try the Schreck approach and see where it would lead. They ran away at the first sign of trouble. I stayed with it, keeping my troops hidden near all but one objective, while US forces stayed where they were with three Shermans! Anyway, after a couple of Kamikaze attacks by there infantry, they decided to stay back. I waited and won!

[Guest GriffinCheng]

Woody, you have blown my cover!

Griffin @ work

[Username]

Griff

I have 3 flags and 3 dead stugs for losing two shermans. Most of your infantry are in the wooded hill. If you leave the hill, you will be shot down. I am not getting within 150 meters of any of your infantry. I cant lose.

Lewis

[guachi]

Depending on exactly how the men are set up, you can move units unseen from the big wooden the Germans are on. YOu can pull them back and march them across the road and into the woods near the church.

Jaosn