"Combat Mission Kills Wargaming"

[Juardis]

Another glowing article in the latest CGW (Dec 2000). Basically, it said once you play CM, you can't go back to any other hex based games. AMEN Brother.

But it also had this juicy tidbit straight from Sir Charles mouth (or keyboard).

CM2 will include the Russkies, Germans and Finns (no other nationalities listed ). "We've received a huge list of suggestions for new features and improvements (presumably from this forum) of which a lot will be incorporated. New weps (tanks and arty pieces), new units (like ski troops - YESSSSS), new terrain types, diff combat organizations, expanded treatment of long-range tank duels and gunnery optics - YESSS#2, and probably a new way to simulate the limited C&C abilities of early war russkies. Some graphics improvements as well (didn't sound like a lot in that dept)."

Very good read. Also in this issue was an article about WWII Online and Steal Beasts. If you buy the issue with the CD, you get SPWAW on it. Well worth the dough boys and girls. If I weren't addicted to CM, I'd seriously consider WWII online. It sounds like a workable scheme.

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Jeff Abbott

[Aacooper]

Haaka paille Suomi!

(sorry if I've misspelt it)

[FurballMagGP]

I met "Hatch" from WWIIOnline last year (1999) at the WB Con after their presentation of what they had so far. I interviewed him for FurballMag and all looked golden on the horizon. But the horizon keeps growing further and further away.

I'd like to say that their presentation, comprised of a Spit traversing a well rendered valley complete with sliding cockpit, looked quite well.....I'm not too sure they are going to be able to deliver an "all around" product. They call it "total war", but it appears they have run into snags or may have to cut some corners to get it Gold. After all, it "was" supposed to be ready for beta many moons ago.

I asked Hatch at that time what sys req's would be needed to be able to play effectively without the common warps and delays in real time and his response was (as I recall) "no more than you need for any game on the market today". Questions arise?

Now I know that CM is a totally different type of gaming experience, but some sort of integration into real time (sans ACM of course) might be something to look into.

CM takes into account so many more factors than most sims (sic) do. Knowing this, and using this as it's strength, the future looks pretty damn bright for "all" of us.

Stand and Deliver!

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-gp

FBM's CM Resource Center

[tss]

Aacooper wrote:

Haaka paille Suomi!

Close, but not correct. The battle cry is spelled:

Hakkaa päälle!

That's one of the oldest Finnish battle cries. It is usually translated to English as "cut'em down" but that is not a completely accurate translation. Come to think it, it doesn't have a completely accurate translation at all. Another possibility would be "charge 'em".

This cry was definitely used during the 30-year war when Finnish light cavalry got the nickname "hakkapeliitta" from it. (The word "päälle" is quite difficult to pronounce correctly if you are not a Finn. So is also "hakkaa" since most European languages don't have a short and a long vowel in a same word in that way.)

- Tommi

[Wazron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aacooper:

Haaka paille Suomi!

(sorry if I've misspelt it)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Prata Engelska eller du!

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"A great part of the information obtained in war is contradictory, a still greater part is false and by far the greatest part is of doubtful character." von Clausewitz, 'On War', 1832.

[Guest wwb_99]

While the article was for the most part upbeat, the sad part of it was the discussion of Road to Moscow. Given the recent jump in processor power, such an ambitious project should now be possible. And while I love tactical war games, I really am an operational general at heart. Someone really needs to do for operational wargames what CM did for tactical wargames. I wonder if the RTM code is for sale.....

WWB

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FurballMagGP:

Now I know that CM is a totally different type of gaming experience, but some sort of integration into real time (sans ACM of course) might be something to look into.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rest assured, FurballMagGP, it won't be looked into. CM is the way it should be, which is turn-based WEGO. In fairness, the query "Will CM convert to real-time?" has been posted numerous times over the months. And each time, the BTS design team has been compelled to argue in great detail as to WHY CM shouldn't be fully real-time, even through TCP/IP connection as expected as a feature soon.

With the search utility, use the terms "real time" or "RTS" to get a host of topic threads that should provide you the BTS arguments against real-time if you do some digging. Then again, the section defining "WE-GO" in the CM Manual might just as well suffice for you.

[This message has been edited by Spook (edited 10-25-2000).]

[Bruno Weiss]

How'd the Finn's get in? Not that I mind, and infact I'm glad. I would have wanted them in CM2, as I also want to see some of the other characters on the program sheet.

Realizing you have to draw the line somewhere, I understand all Nationalities involved on the Ostfront would be difficult to get into the limitations of the game. But once again, I must say that the complete ommission of some form of representation of the factions which made up the various Ostfront ethnic paramilitary resistance forces is a substantial piece of military history left out. I can only hope, that we will see actual "German" trucks in the German OOB this time. If not, then for crying out loud at least make sure there's a Ford 2 1/2 ton truck in the German OOB, which were quite common.

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"Wer zuerst schiesst hat mehr von Leben"

Moto-(3./JG11 "Graf")

Bruno Weiss

[Pham911]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

How'd the Finn's get in? Not that I mind, and infact I'm glad. I would have wanted them in CM2, as I also want to see some of the other characters on the program sheet.

Realizing you have to draw the line somewhere, I understand all Nationalities involved on the Ostfront would be difficult to get into the limitations of the game. But once again, I must say that the complete ommission of some form of representation of the factions which made up the various Ostfront ethnic paramilitary resistance forces is a substantial piece of military history left out. I can only hope, that we will see actual "German" trucks in the German OOB this time. If not, then for crying out loud at least make sure there's a Ford 2 1/2 ton truck in the German OOB, which were quite common.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Less Finns, more Trucks!

I'd be pretty pleased myself if the game came out and was called "CM2: Non-Finnish Convoy Mission".

[Chupacabra]

Teamster Mission!

"Attack it yourself, buttwipe, it's our lunch hour."

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Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[Sgt. Steiner]

It seems to me that most of the nationalities that were involved on the Ostfront could be included. After all, CM1 has Americans/Brits/Poles/French/Canadians vs the Germans.

So a Germans/Finns/Romanians/Hungarians/Italians vs the Russians could easily be done. Of course then you'd have to have "Ow, my leg!" done in six different languages..

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"Follow me, and I'll show you where the iron crosses grow"

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sgt. Steiner:

/Poles/French/Canadians vs the Germans.

So a Germans/Finns/Romanians/Hungarians/Italians vs the Russians could easily be done. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you know everything about the squad-level organisation of the Hungarian army in 1943? Or care to do the research? Or know somebody who will do it? Speak Hungarian?

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Andreas

Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 10-25-2000).]

[Guest wwb_99]

Actually, the Hungarians do know a fair amount about the Hungarian organization in WW II. If anyone goes to Budapest check out the Military Museum (I have no idea what the Hungarian name is) on Buda Castle hill. They have a really cool small arms exhibit, running from spears to RPG-7Vs.

WWB

Ps: Finding someone who can read hungarian is more of a problem.

[This message has been edited by wwb_99 (edited 10-25-2000).]

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wwb_99:

Actually, the Hungarians do know a fair amount about the Hungarian organization in WW II. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no doubt about that. The Romanians do too, most likely, about Romanian stuff. BUt as you said, finding someone doing the research is the problem. I have seen at least two 'scary' Finnish grogs on this board, who at every possible or impossible opportunity tell us in great detail why someone did get a Mannerheim Cross for some action that in the cold light of the Finnish day must have looked extremely suicidal (e.g somebody killing off an Elite Soviet batallion with a blunt pitchfork while whistling the Finnish anthem), and I am sure BTS is either going to enlist them or not have Finns at all... But so far the Hungarian/Romanian/Italian grogs have been few and far between...

BTW, we took a picture of a nice T-26 in Finnish markings at Bovington. Will post it later for Tommi and tss.

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Andreas

Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 10-25-2000).]

[Leclerc]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

So you know everything about the squad-level organisation of the Hungarian army in 1943? Or care to do the research? Or know somebody who will do it? Speak Hungarian?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try this: http://www.freeport-tech.com/wwii/000_admin/000oob.htm

The author has done a book about hungarian army for the whole WW2

[Vetch]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FurballMagGP:

I met "Hatch" from WWIIOnline last year (1999) at the WB Con after their presentation of what they had so far. I interviewed him for FurballMag and all looked golden on the horizon. But the horizon keeps growing further and further away.

I'd like to say that their presentation, comprised of a Spit traversing a well rendered valley complete with sliding cockpit, looked quite well.....I'm not too sure they are going to be able to deliver an "all around" product. They call it "total war", but it appears they have run into snags or may have to cut some corners to get it Gold. After all, it "was" supposed to be ready for beta many moons ago.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, FurballMagGP,

Don't go knockin Cornered Rat Software (the makers of WWII Online) too much. If you'd been keeping tabs on them lately you would see that they have been in closed beta already for a couple of months and are about to add another 100 beta testers. They have said they will hit open beta by the end of the year. I've seen no evidence that they have "run into snags" or "cut some corners". Just looks like they are meticulously building the game the proper way, not unlike BTS did with Combat Mission.

Oh, and let's not forget that BTS also had to revise its release date once or twice. And the game is much, much better for it.

Vetch

[Guest tero]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

BTW, we took a picture of a nice T-26 in Finnish markings at Bovington. Will post it later for Tommi and tss.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you notice the Stug-III in Bovington is actually an ex-Finnish vehicle ? The Finnish ID-tag was still attached to the left upper hull side of the vehicle in the summer of 1999 when I visited the place. Many of the post-war modifications are/were still in place then. The MG shield for example is from a BT-7 and was attached to the vehicle when the remote controll MG mounting was taken out and the MG-34 was replaced with a DT lmg.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Leclerc:

Try this: http://www.freeport-tech.com/wwii/000_admin/000oob.htm

The author has done a book about hungarian army for the whole WW2

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe - funny. I shut up now.

Did not notice about the Stug - but it came at a bad point, when I had to go out and buy more film, and I sort of missed it for closer looks. It was standing right next to an Archer though, so that took a bit of interest. BTW, Bovington is currently doing a come in once, get a ticket free deal (until 31/3/01)

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Andreas

Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 10-26-2000).]

[Geier]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Will post it later for Tommi and tss.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I thought tss and Tommi were the same person. But clearly tss is the one with the account and Tommi just signs the messages.

And AFAIK all male Finns over 20 with Internet accounts are grogs. Tommi just happens to be the best of them.

I would be interested in if he is going to buy Europa-Universalis (and let Finland fulfill their destiny and invade Moscow. He would have to play as Sweden though.) or just continue to make up JAS Gripen jokes.

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Johan

"The succesful execution of a well devised plan often looks like luck to saps."

Dashiell Hammett

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Geier:

And I thought tss and Tommi were the same person. But clearly tss is the one with the account and Tommi just signs the messages.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I was not so sure about it anymore, and thought before I eff one of them off, who would then come after me wielding a log and taking out the 1st BN Royal Scots Guards on his way to get a Cappucino, I better post for them both.

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Andreas

Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 10-26-2000).]

[PeterNZer]

They did have the Stug and the reconverted it back to it's German design, probably cos they had enough of the Finnish bus-trips coming through

I have a picture of it and will post it tonight or something

PeterNZ

[tss]

Geier wrote:

And I thought tss and Tommi were the same person. But clearly tss is the one with the account and Tommi just signs the messages.

Actually, there are three persons here: me, myself and I. (And also Billie Holiday but she's only in the CD player).

I would be interested in if he is going to buy Europa-Universalis (and let Finland fulfill their destiny and invade Moscow. He would have to play as Sweden though.)

Oh, that wouldn't be a problem since 1/3 of Swedish army was composed of Finns in any case (while Finnish population was only 1/6 of the total population of Sweden-Finland). Except for those wars that were fought in Finland when the ratio was something like 2-3 Finns to each Swede in arms.

In fact, if Gustav IV had sent in some Riksvenska regiments to Finland in 1808, we might still be subjects of the Three Crowns. Of course, the Commander-in-Chief, General Klingspor should have been thrown away for that to happen. His grand strategy was to withdraw when there was no need and attack when there was no chance of success anymore.

And as for purchasing the game. I haven't decided it yet. As a general rule, I don't like compressed-time games much and my modem is not fast enough to allow comfortable multiplayer setup.

or just continue to make up JAS Gripen jokes.

Hey, I don't have to make up them.

- Tommi

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

Hey, I don't have to make up them.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boy - what a hot date, taking a Gripen for a night in the town...

Had a look at the nicely restored (at least it looks that way) T-26 yet?

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Andreas

Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 10-26-2000).]

[tss]

Germanboy wrote:

Boy - what a hot date, taking a Gripen for a night in the town...

You only have to be careful with the beak and claws. But you certainly get a lot of room in movie theaters, that's sure. And there aren't many muggers who want to attack a 500 kg mythical beast.

Had a look at the nicely restored (at least it looks that way) T-26 yet?

Actually, no. Have you posted the link somewhere? That remainds me that I should finally get developed the photos that I took at Parola Armor Museum this summer. The museum has a pretty good collection of early-war Soviet armor. Most of the vehicles shown were subsequently used by the Finnish army so they have Finnish markings. There are few T-26s with original markings, namely those that were in too bad condition to be repaired.

And in case someone has missed this before, here's a link to Andreas Lärka's page: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6139/ containing a staggering amount of photos of Finnish tanks.

- Tommi

[FurballMagGP]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Don't go knockin Cornered Rat Software (the makers of WWII Online) too much. If you'd been keeping tabs on them lately you would see that they have been in closed beta already for a couple of months and are about to add another 100 beta testers<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not knockin CRS at all, just sayin that their timelines were more than a bit off. And while I'm positive that their AC will be top rate, i'm a bit skeptical as to how that will affect the rest of the vehicles.

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-gp

FBM's CM Resource Center