fox hole / fighting positions

[minmax]

As an old grunt I well remeber humping about 15 klicks and then digging our hole for the night. I was wondering is it correct to assume that it would take say a platoon about 10 minutes to dig fighting positions? I use the entrenchment option but I often wonder if that is a valid use of that option. What are you thoughts Major H and others?

"Why are you digging the hole? You are the junior man...Yes it sucks but don't worry FNG we should have replacements in soon after this group gets killed, well then you will no longer be junior."

[MajorH TacOps Developer]

It depends on the soil. I dug holes in Virginia, California, Hawaii, and Okinawa and in those places 10 minutes didn't produce much besides sweat.

Below is what I have said before on this.

12 to 24 hours or more depending on the nature of the soil and assuming plenty of mechanical help and construction supplies - and no enemy fire. The current generic entrenchment marker in TacOps represents a 100 meter by 100 meter area that is moderately fortified with a combination of open connecting trenches, infantry fighting positions with moderate overhead cover, and ramped vehicle pits without overhead cover.

I invite anyone to try the following experiment. Find shovel and pick. Go into backyard. Note the time. Dig a hole five feet deep, five feet wide, and four or five feet front to back. Add grenade sump. Find steel pickets or find and hack timber to size and use it to build a frame to support overhead cover. Fill bags with dirt from hole sufficient to stack bags two high on top of and around the overhead cover frame. Move all remaining dirt far enough away from the hole so that it can not be seen from the enemy side of the hole. Camouflage the area around the hole to include breaking up the outline of the overhead cover. Note the time. Take a brief break, congratulate yourself, and then start work on a communication trench.

[minmax]

Major H,

Who was digging those holes? I can scratch out a decent hide in about 10 minutes given 20 minutes I have a good 3 foot hole. Now a 5 footer with firing step and sump that is about an hour. You gotta get on your prives and lances to work faster than 12 hours. We always brought decent shovels and picks with us not a stinkin e-tools.

I have dug in many of the same places as you but I must respectfully disagree on your 12 to 24 hour estimate. I am talking strictly grunts dismounted who have humped into position. Comm trenches and vehicle pits aside.

Thanks for the response and next time you dig a hole call me up.

[MajorH TacOps Developer]

You are talking about a quick hole or shallow slit trench that is better than nothing but which is only the first step in building a decent fighting position.

I am talking about a real fighting position with overhead cover, that is tied in with my neighbors and my commander, and that just about requires the enemy to come up and stick a bayonet in my face if they want to kill me.

My ultimate instructor on fighting positions was Colonel J.C. Studt. He learned his art at Khe Sanh. Later when he was the Third Marines CO in Hawaii he delighted in using a few kicks to collapse unworthy fighting positions and half bury unskilled 2nd Lts like myself.

[ June 02, 2004, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: MajorH ]

[MajorH TacOps Developer]

> Who was digging those holes?

Everybody dug in the infantry units that I was in unless they were preparing for a patrol or walking the line. That included junior officers and SNCOs.

> Thanks for the response and next time

> you dig a hole call me up.

I established a few critical goals after retiring.

I don't get up before the sun.

I don't get cold and wet.

I don't dig holes.

[ June 02, 2004, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: MajorH ]

[dhuffjr]

Here is my 2 cents worth as a civilian who has never dug a "real" fighting position.

Coastal NC (~1 mile from MCAS New River) digging a trench for a drain line in my parents backyard: soft soil but 2ft down it filled with water. Not fun.

Southwestern Ohio recently finished digging foundation for patio: Clay hard as a brick soil (calling it soil is a stretch I think it is more like a soft rock) with LOTS of rocks. 10 minutes with a shovel gets you quite frustrated with little to show for the effort.

I can't remember the show but it is on the History channel with the guy who yells alot. He had a couple of guys digging a fighting position as a demonstration. I am fuzzy on the details but memory says that it looked like a fighting position 8-10 hours later but it was not as deep as it should have been.

Okay maybe it was 20 cents worth but I would have to side with the Major on this one.

Dennis

[Tory the Magnus]

I don't see why it matters how long it takes to dig an entrenchment. The entrenchments you can deploy at the start of some TacOp's maps are prepared positions that you probably had plenty of time to prepare in the firt place since all the scenarios that I have played involving entrenchments have appeared to be flanking moves by OPFOR against BLUEFOR secondary units in flank protection positions.

[MajorH TacOps Developer]

> I don't see why it matters how long it takes

> to dig an entrenchment.

Some users like to use external rules to add details that the game engine doesn't support.

In this case the original poster wanted to know if it was appropriate to use umpire tools to award an entrenchment marker to a unit that had been stationary for ten minutes.

[Tory the Magnus]

Ahh ok. So what is the consensus?

[MajorH TacOps Developer]

In my opinion the entrenchment marker in TacOps v4 provides benefits that are too strong to be achieved in 10 minutes.

[Ruthless]

Originally posted by dhuffjr:

I can't remember the show but it is on the History channel with the guy who yells alot.

Dennis

"Mail Call" with R.L. Ermee (sp?)

[minmax]

Major H,

Yes, good set of rules to live by. Sounds like your teacher did a good job. My own experience digging holes is from troop days, as an NCO I tried to keep the engineers happy so when it came to excavation they got dirty.

Yes, building a real underground hootch takes quite a bit longer. Unfortunately in Central America we never stayed in one place long enough to build luxury accomodations.

Tiger Island had some real up-scale entrenchments as long as you did not mind sharing space with large rats. (Anyone want to play a game of rat race?)

DHuffJr.- 8 to 10 hours huh? Must have been a Command Bunker with logs on top, 10 feet deep with a good long chicken ramp, lots of sandbags, and pallet flooring. That makes sense. A simple fighting position 8 to 10 hours? Sounds like his peons were very slow. If the soil is to tough then call C-4 I love det cord its like play-do for big kids. The trick with manual labor of any kind is finding the way to avoid sweating. I would be interested to see that episode of mail call.

Any way, I have retired from the hole digging and gear humping and Lieutenant / PFC watches to get fat (er), dumb (er) and happy.

Remeber in the tropics snakes like holes so poke with stick before you proceed in.

[dhuffjr]

I don't think the guys digging the hole were military. They WWII buffs maybe they were dressed in that era clothing (I think). It looked like some hill in SoCal. Soil like my backyard....hard and rocky! I am a bit fuzzy on the timeframe, I could be off by a couple of hours but it was a long time from my memory. I believe it was an MG pit. They had it layed out and everything done with it that should be (dirt berm, shelf for the weapon) they just did not get it to a spec depth.

[athkatla]

As a former JNCO in the British Army for 14 years, I have dug a few trenches in my time and I can tell you this, you can't even get the grass off the top for the area you need in 10 minutes! It's not just a case of digging it and chucking it, the grass is kept in rolls to cover over the soild you dig out the hole, therefore giving the impression of slightly raised grassed ground.

The trenches I dug, were dug by myself and 1 other soldier, no engineer help or explosives, just the army issue short entrenching tool, and I can assure you that to dig a 6 foot deep by 3 foot wide trench, with 2 sleeping bays at either side approximately 3 feet deep, and then all the camming up etc. etc. was a 8 - 12 hour job, no kidding at all!

[Stoffel]

athkatla and the major are right about this issue.

I have been an infantry soldier myself and I dug quite a few of those (two man)fighting positions.

We had to fill little sandbags too to make the sides stronger.

Work took us about 8 hours.

Most of the time we got 24 hours to dig the pits for the platoon and the vehicles,place mines and barbed wire and to dug communication trenches.