Douglas Rudd Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 Just did a test with arty, ranging from 105mm to 240mm, targeted a river, let hell break loose, river did not change, still frozen. Maybe in CM2+ when a frozen river is hit by HE, it could revert to a non frozen river section? Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Maybe in CM2+ when a frozen river is hit by HE, it could revert to a non frozen river section?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As long as a sufficient number of rounds fall in that section to break the ice, otherwise it looks odd to have an entire tile of frozen river revert to water with just one spotter round. Perhaps give each tile a damage value, much like houses. If any unit is caught crossing it when the ice breaks they are counted as eliminated. And if you really want to get clever have each round leave a water hole, as opposed to a crater. I'd love to see the look on Charle's face when he reads this one ------------------ ...This is Romeo-Foxtrot, shall we dance?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 Breaking the ice with arty is very necessary for CM2. It was practiced all winter long by the Germans with deadly effect. One very vivid description of such an action is in Guy Sajer's "Forgotten Soldier." WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Napoleon1944 Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 I hate the frozen rivers. There were very few frozen rivers overall due to the rapid currents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 There were very few frozen rivers in western Europe, but on the frigid steppe it was a different story. First, the rivers tend to be lazier (flatter country) and second it got a lot colder away from the tempering influence of the sea. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 If you really wanted to get fancy, have different degrees of ice thickness. You could have some be able to take the weight of light tanks and vehicles, some that could just hold inf, and some that might hold inf... or might not. Is BTS up to the callenge? Hint, hint. ------------------ Charon doesn't make change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basebal351 Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wwb_99: Breaking the ice with arty is very necessary for CM2. It was practiced all winter long by the Germans with deadly effect. One very vivid description of such an action is in Guy Sajer's "Forgotten Soldier." WWB<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That was a great book, I just finished it. I was wondering though, if Guy Sajer was a real soldier in the war on the German side. I know that "All Quiet on the Western Front", another good war book, was written from the perspective of German troops, but by a British guy. I was wondering if it was the same for "The Forgotten Soldier". Anybody know?? Thanks, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 Boy is that a can of worms question. There are two camps on this. One camp says it is real and written from a real vet. Other camp says that no record of his name could be found in the Gross Deutchland records and some fundametal mistakes in the text (like he gets the placement of the insignia on the WRONG sleeve) as evidence that it is fiction. Either way, it won't get solved here on this forum and no matter which camp you belong to it the book still stands as an excellant view of life on the Eastern Front. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnDeere Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 Ice is nearly impossible to penetrate with explosives. I know for a fact to break large ice jams due to quick freezes and thaws that large amounts of explosives are used by municipalities to break these flows threatning structures. As for a 105mm HE shell doing damage, it would probably just make a 3 or 4 foot dia. hole. Just speaking from experience and living in regions where rivers and bodies of water freeze completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tero Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JohnDeere: Ice is nearly impossible to penetrate with explosives. I know for a fact to break large ice jams due to quick freezes and thaws that large amounts of explosives are used by municipalities to break these flows threatning structures. As for a 105mm HE shell doing damage, it would probably just make a 3 or 4 foot dia. hole. Just speaking from experience and living in regions where rivers and bodies of water freeze completely. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Finnish coastal artillery used both HE and AP shots to break up the ice that could carry tanks to stop several attacks the Soviets made over frozen salt water of the Gulf of Finland during Winter War. The trick in using HE is to set the fuzes to VERY sensitive setting or use airbustst. And the groupings must be TIGHT. Ceterum censeo: the artillery fire groupings should be much tighter at least for the Finnish artillery. Ice on frozen rivers were broken up by artillery barrages by regular artillery. Under ice mines were used to blow up lenghty holes on the ice to prevent the enemy from attacking. Sellophane was used to make the recce planes think the ice was not frozen. I think frozen ice and it braking is a definitive must in CM2. BTW: I too live in a place where bodies of water freeze completely. [This message has been edited by tero (edited 10-27-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 tero wrote: Under ice mines were used to blow up lenghty holes on the ice to prevent the enemy from attacking. I guess I should elaborate a little on the subject of ice mines. They were made by filling a bottle (for example, an empty vodka bottle) with explosive and sealing it watertight. The minefields were constructed by making two lines of holes in the ice at about 3-4 meter distance between two adjacent holes. A wooden board was put on top of each hole and two mines that were tied together with a piece of string were put dangling from each board. The usual method of blowing up an ice minefield was with electric ignition with wires going only in one bottle. The shockwave of the first explosion would then cause the other mines to explode. The other method was to use a tripwire but I don't remember the details how it was made to work. An exploding minefield would create a 10 meter wide and 100-200 meter long inpassable space of open water. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JohnDeere: Ice is nearly impossible to penetrate with explosives. I know for a fact to break large ice jams due to quick freezes and thaws that large amounts of explosives are used by municipalities to break these flows threatning structures. As for a 105mm HE shell doing damage, it would probably just make a 3 or 4 foot dia. hole. Just speaking from experience and living in regions where rivers and bodies of water freeze completely. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, the way Sajer describes (weather he was there or not) was that the 105 spotter would sit in a tree, wait until the Russians started to infiltrate, call in the barrage (which would crack the ice) and then watch the Russian soldiers wobble and attempt to keep from falling in. Soon the river would refreeze and the process had to be continued. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Basebal351: I know that "All Quiet on the Western Front", another good war book, was written from the perspective of German troops, but by a British guy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Interesting but quite wrong - it was written by Erich Maria Remarque, a German veteran of the Western Front. There are two movies, a German and an American production. Remarque later emigrated because the Nazis hated him. Learn more about him here: http://www.remarque.de/wer_e.html (in English) ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 10-27-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basebal351 Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: Interesting but quite wrong - it was written by Erich Maria Remarque, a German veteran of the Western Front. There are two movies, a German and an American production. Remarque later emigrated because the Nazis hated him. Learn more about him here: http://www.remarque.de/wer_e.html (in English) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Wow, you are absolutely correct. I don't know where I think I read that...but, alas, I stand corrected. Thank you for the correction. But my question about Guy Sajer still stands Thanks, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basebal351 Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt: Boy is that a can of worms question. There are two camps on this. One camp says it is real and written from a real vet. Other camp says that no record of his name could be found in the Gross Deutchland records and some fundametal mistakes in the text (like he gets the placement of the insignia on the WRONG sleeve) as evidence that it is fiction. Either way, it won't get solved here on this forum and no matter which camp you belong to it the book still stands as an excellant view of life on the Eastern Front. Madmatt<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks for the input Madmatt. I had not known about those two details. I personally wondered at Sajer's "incredible" abilitity to remember the exact words spoken by various people. Weisradau's speech(spelling is wrong, I know) stands as a good example. He's got a two page talk in there (albeit an excellent one about the upcoming struggle) as if it was verbatim for what he said. I think I'd forget everything in an ordeal like that . Thanks, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tero Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 Of the 3179 tanks the Russians admit to losing to all causes during Winter War 110 are listed as sunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 For those interested here is a link to an OT-34 that was recently pulled out of a lake outside Moscow. I wonder how it got there http://rkka.domainvalet.com/mow99.htm The rest of the site is located here http://www.dol.ru/users/hotdog/home.htm Harold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted October 30, 2000 Share Posted October 30, 2000 "I personally wondered at Sajer's "incredible" abilitity to remember the exact words spoken by various people. Weisradau's speech(spelling is wrong, I know) stands as a good example. " Well I've yet to read a single soldiers memoir that doesn't indclude liberal amounts of dialogue thrown in, whether it was exact or approximation, that's a standard part of the genre. Look no farther than "Company Commander..." There was aguy a while back with a hard on for Sajer whos tarted the whole Sajer is a fake thing. (Me I could probably remember a third of the stuff I did in my twenty year military career with any detail. In fact while exquisitely painting up some 20m WW2 paratroopers last year I put the unit patch on the wrong soldier! And me an ex-member of the 82d and a drill Sgt. I guess I'm a fake too!) He talked to the GD association who hadn't heard of Sajer (there would have been maybe a 100,00+ soldiers that have passed through the GD at least.) For a while the head of the GD Assoc. thought Sajer was probably be a fake, they have since recanted after new evidence and say "he's probably real." Whatever. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted October 30, 2000 Share Posted October 30, 2000 Los said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Well I've yet to read a single soldiers memoir that doesn't indclude liberal amounts of dialogue thrown in, whether it was exact or approximation, that's a standard part of the genre. Look no farther than "Company Commander..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is a very ancient literary tradtion. Ever read Thucidides? His account of the Peloponnesian War is repleat with multi-page speeches supposedly made by the various diplomats, generals, and politicians over the many years this war lasted. But nobody doubts Thucidides was really there ------------------ -Bullethead In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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