Ach! Ich habe meinen Schlussel meine panzer verloren! Boohoo

[kunstler]

I tried Chance Encounter as the yanks and knocked out the German armour early. Then I pounded them with 5 sherman tanks and roughly 300 rounds of HE. Weee!

Then I played chance encounter as the bosche and I lost my armour early, just like the AI. I then got heavily pounded by 5 shermans which the AI had the gall to keep out of panzerfaust range.

I didn't do any better than the ai when I lost my tanks. Er, self-propelled guns.

So my quesion is, what do you fellas in the tactical know do when your armour gets chopped up? (Besides not losing it in the first place) Hide? How do you hold forward positions when they get the heck hammered out of them? Even the AI was wise enough to hang back with the tanks and cover them with infantry.

On another line, how long do pbem games usually take, and is there an opponents registry or something?

Thnx in advance!

kunstler

"Ich mochte mir Kleider ansehen." --- Hermann Goering

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Once your armor is gone in teh beta unless youve reduced the enemy tanks significantly you are in deep SH&T. The fausts do not function properly ( corrected bug) so as GERMS you only have your schreks (if living) that you can count on, better use them sparingly with good kill %. I think if the fausts were fucntioning correctly in the beta yoru chances of turning things around would be significantly improved but the situation is still a desperate one.

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[Berlichtingen]

Well now, I've found smoke to be effective. Those damn Shermans can shoot what they can't see. If you lay it right (In the beta, that has a much to do with luck as skill), you force them into Schreck/Faust range or not to use them.

[Username]

I just finished CE as germs against AI for umpteenthed time and heres the synopsis:

stugs loaded with MG42s PSCKs and Bn HQ all 3 up the road to unload to the right of the church. Push germ inf forward use running.

I put Stugs in Hunt mode to take a quick peek over the top then a quick reverse order.

Results: 2 KO sherms. I do this sneeky peek again and KO another sherm but lose a stug. Its now 2 on 2. Sherms go "grey" as I lose sight of them. Stugs are hammering ami inf when a stug gets banged from I dont know what. 2:1. I get another sherm but lose last stug. Im screwed as remaining sherm is just taxiing around shooting up the place. Lucky schreck hit nails him from the church (answered prayer)and my 81mm arty breaks the ami inf back. I get all 4 flags but its a bloodbath.

So even against the comp AI, CE is all about the armor fight. Stugs should move forward in my opinion but once they blood the amis, like nail 2 shermans, just hang back and try to let inf and arty take thier toll. Put them on reverse slopes or behind buildings. Against a human its really hard to get even a draw as the germans. But if I only had a JGDPNZIV or hetzer...

Lewis

[markk]

By luck,I managed to take out 4 shermans before I lost a vehicle.

[kunstler]

Unfortunately I think the only thing that can lay smoke down in CE are the stugs. Will infantry be able to fire smoke charges in the game?

So battles are decided by the armour engagement. If the armour gets knocked out, it's time to bug out. That or watch your guys get shelled to pieces.

If the fausts work in the final, that's great for the germans. The poor yanks still only get their bazookas. Will there be anti-tank charges in the final?

First time I played I spread out my tanks. I thought that was only logical, spread em out so they don't all get taken out at once. They didn't. They got taken out one by one. Doh!

In the demo games vs. the ai since I just clump my armour together, real tight. 3 or 5 guns is better than 1 in a tank duel. Looks like a monty python skit, my tanks are packed so tight. Does this work in battles vs. human opponents? The only disadvantage I found was artillery, but artillery can't hit the wide side of a barn anyway, so it's not a problem.

kunstler

[Gen. Sosaboski]

Kunstler,

I'd watch out for artillery occassionaly. I just had a Sherms gun taken out by 81 mm mortar round (I think). I don't know if they're still up, but if you can go on over to the CM club in Yahoo (http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub). Madmatt had some good pictures up about what happens to a German King Tiger group (bunched up together) when hit by an artillery bombardment. Makes you think...

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Sosabowski, 1st Pol. Abn.

Yes, I know my name is spelled wrong as a member!

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Unfortunately I think the only thing that can lay smoke down in CE are the stugs. Will infantry be able to fire smoke charges in the game?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do you think I would suggest it if it couldn't be done? The off map 81 battery can literal cover the map with smoke.

[Moriarty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

Well now, I've found smoke to be effective. Those damn Shermans can shoot what they can't see. If you lay it right (In the beta, that has a much to do with luck as skill), you force them into Schreck/Faust range or not to use them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and if anybody would know about smoke, it would be SS UBERRAUCHENFUHRER BERLICHINGEN

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Always with the negative waves, Moriarty, always with the negative waves — Oddball

[Goanna]

I have to agree with Berli (as much as it makes me want to spit ) and disagree with Lewis. I have won CE a few times against the AI playing the Germans even though I had lost all my StuGs and he had one or more Shermans.

I even beat Berli once (which is an accomplishment I assure you) after losing all my Stugs in the tank battle and leaving him with two. The schreck is a fantastic peice of gear, and getting it into position where you expect the M4s to go (or where you don't want them to go) is key. Then just wait for your shot.

Smoke is great if you use it early to cover your infantry advance locations. Berli pioneered this work, and we call him SS-Uberrauchenfuhrer berli now.

Try playing Berli and have him take the Germans. I think you will find it highly educational and a big change from the AI. Oh, and make sure you tell him he's a big girly marine so he is "motivated" to do his best.

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desert rat wannabe

[This message has been edited by Goanna (edited 03-18-2000).]

[Moriarty]

Berli responds well to jarhead, too

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It's a piece of junk — Moriarty

[Moriarty]

And if you tangle with Goanna in RB, beware his schrecks.

I mentioned to Berli that I had 2 working M4s against Goanna, who was sans his 88s.

Berli asked if Goanna still had his schrecks. I says, Yup.

Berli's response: Hah, you're f####d.

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goanna:

I have to agree with Berli (as much as it makes me want to spit ) and disagree with Lewis. I have won CE a few times against the AI playing the Germans even though I had lost all my StuGs and he had one or more Shermans.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Goanna

How are you disagreeing with me? I state that I beat the AI (and a number of times at that) as the CE Germans even though I lost all my stugs. Further, I said that a PSK saved the day.

Do you disagree with my contention that CE is really about the armor? Care to play, you as the germans and dont use your Stugs?

Lewis

[Goanna]

I disagree that the scenario is "all about the armour battle" as you contend. I think that the initial few turns are heavily armour intensive, but after that it is more abut the infantry. I think Steve from BTS, and Fionn have also made this point before, and wouldn't want any new PBEM players to get the wrong impression that CE is just a tank duel.

Now, if the Allied player (human) is able to escape the tank duels with 3 to 5 M4's left, I would say that the Germans don't have a chance, unless they make some big mistakes. All of the HE rounds the M4 carries will pulverise the Germans if they can sit back and do it.

However, if the German player can lose all his StuGs for 3 or 4 M4s killed, I have to like the Germans chances.

Sorry to not be more explicit about my disagreement in your post, Lewis.

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desert rat wannabe

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goanna:

I disagree that the scenario is "all about the armour battle" as you contend. I think that the initial few turns are heavily armour intensive, but after that it is more abut the infantry.

Now, if the Allied player (human) is able to escape the tank duels with 3 to 5 M4's left, I would say that the Germans don't have a chance, unless they make some big mistakes. All of the HE rounds the M4 carries will pulverise the Germans if they can sit back and do it.

However, if the German player can lose all his StuGs for 3 or 4 M4s killed, I have to like the Germans chances.

Sorry to not be more explicit about my disagreement in your post, Lewis.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Goanna

Let me get this strait. Its not about the armor battle, its about the survivors of the armor battle?

Glad I understand you now. (Rolling eyes and shaking head) So you are saying that if I am the americans and have one sherman, you are the germans with NO stugs..you will win usually? sometimes? depending on the weather? Could we play a scenario this way? Park the non-needed material in some dead spot?

Sorry but I think you are making some moot point at best. Thanks for your ..uh ..explicitnessness.

Lewis

[MrPeng]

Jo-Goanna beat Berlightnighsntcghenshs??!! Holy crap! I just surrendered to Berli today after he tore me a new anal sphincter as the germs in CE ina bout 6 turns. The guy is a friggin MONSTER. I was just thinking i have to get a hell of a lot better at this game b4 i ever try to play someone of Berli's calibre and then GOANNA goes and beats him. The transexual, leaping, flamin lizard of transported convict-land wins a damn game! what the HELL is the world coming to? I just don't get it. maybe SS is right about the whole luck thing...NAAAH!

Peng out of credulity

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Peng sez "die a lot now."

[freelancal]

On another line, how long do pbem games usually take, and is there an opponents registry or something?

I'v e found that PBEM games last about half of what an AI game takes. My guess is that the AI just doesn't know when to give up, where as an opponent can see the hand writing on the wall.

I've found an opponents registry at http://www.pantherworks.com/playerlist.asp

you just need to make sure your opponent is registered there so that your points are tallied.

[Username]

Originally posted by freelancal:

On another line, how long do pbem games usually take, and is there an opponents registry or something?

QUOTE]

A function of the players. I answer emails sometimes within minutes , sometimes takes a 1/4 hour. My oponents maybe 1 a day. I have 1 that can keep up.

Lewis

[Guest Big Time Software]

I disagree that the PF problems in the Beta Demo are decisive. As the US player I don't let any German squad get within 150m of me in an open field battle like CE, so PFs are a non issue. Panzerschrecks on the other hand have stung me a number of times because the bastards are harder to spot and don't need to be close to score a significant hit.

The only problem comes into play if the US loses the bulk of its infantry and the Germans still have theirs. In this case the Germans can come in from too many angles to handle *if* the US are down a few Shermans and/or have them poorly deployed so that they can't offer mutual fire support.

I think CE is probably the most even of the three battles in terms of the influence of armor. However, the more Shermans that the US retains the harder it is for the Germans far more than the other way around IMHO. StuGs just aren't a good infantry support tank. Now, give me a StuH 42 and I will show you some real problems for the US forces

Steve

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now, give me a StuH 42 and I will show you some real problems for the US forces<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a better idea... give us the StuH 42

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

StuGs just aren't a good infantry support tank. Now, give me a StuH 42 and I will show you some real problems for the US forces

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually stugs were regarded as better infantry support than tanks. They were manned by artillerymen and fought against infantry more effectively.

I would like to see the mix of vehicles changed in the scenario. Maybe a few shermans with 76mm would be more historical at this point in the war. As I have said previously, a hetzer or jgdpnzIV would be nice also. It would be fun to get to pick the mix, ie either get FO with 81mm or a stug105, get either 3 stug75 or two hetzers..etc. This way there is always some doubt about what you are up against..as it should be.

Lewis

[kunstler]

Just tried CE again, and discovered that the 81mm does indeed have smoke. It's not listed in the little ammo box, but it is under the menu of options. Didn't notice that before. I gave it a try and it not only covered the map with smoke, it covered the nebulous terrain around the map with smoke. It was a heck of a lot of smoke. Rather cool

Thnx for the registry link Freelancal!

kunstler

[Guest Big Time Software]

For infantry support, I would take a 75mm Sherman over a StuG any day of the week Not only does it have a kick ass HE main gun, it also has a ton of ammo for it. Add to that the two protected MGs and you have an infantry slaughter machine. The StuG, on the other hand, has a limited ammo supply, no MG for anything but self defense, and the inability to rapidly adjust fire do to its lack of a turret.

Remeber, the Sherman was designed to be an infantry support tank. Yes, the StuG was designed to support the infantry as well, but its role was changed to an AT vehicle and the original role moved over to the StuH 42. Don't get me wrong, the StuG is a good AFV, just not the best at infantry support for the above mentioned reasons.

As for the realism of a 5x75mm Sherman platoon late in the war, you are partially correct. There would be a much higher degree of chance that a 76mm Sherman would be present, but not assured. There were plenty of units that ended the war as all 75s. In fact some units did this on purpose as they 75 design was a better infantry support tank than the 76. I know it is a bit odd to think of someone turning down a 76, but apparently some did. I know I wouldn't

Steve

[Username]

I think we are confused about what is considered infantry support. To me its when the infantry are out front of the supporting armor which is "shooting them onto the target". In this respect, the stug is very well designed. It is low and inconspicuous. It was crewed by artillery men who would use HE to better effect than panzers would (I never compared stugs to shermans by the way, I was comparing stugs to panzers).

The shermans bow MG was not something to get in front of. It was "adjusted" by watching the tracer strikes through the vision block. I wouldnt want that to shoot me onto an objective. I agree that the sherm 75mm HE was formidable (as was its rate of fire and quick turret traverse and WP) but the bonus of the stugs AT ability is a better "overwatch" weapon for the infantry going in (in case armor shows up). I believe some stugs had coaxial MG as well as external MG.

In my opinion the sherm 75mm was a good pursuit weapon once a breakthrough was achieved. As long as TDs were following behind closely. Its extreme height made it an obvious target and would draw alot of fire..not what I would want for infantry support. But it did function in this role and also as the sherm 105mm as an improvement.

Lewis

[This message has been edited by Username (edited 03-20-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Infantry support is, in my understanding of the concept during WWII, for an AFV to add firepower to the strength of the infantry in order to allow it to obtain its objectives against primarily infantry based opposition (including fortifactions). This was the original design for both the StuG and the Sherman, but both by the end of the war were more geared towards AT role than infantry support.

The loss of the short 75mm howitzer of earlier StuGs made them less effective in the role of infantry support than the models we see in CM. The gun in the StuGs in CM had the same gun as the Panzer IV, which was a purpose built AT weapon. As you say, the last model StuG did in fact have a coax for the last half of its production cycle. But since this was not a turreted tank its effectiveness was limited compared to any (turreted) tank.

While the piping and paybooks of the men that crewed the StuGs might have been Artillery, their training was closer to a tanker than a canoncocker. Due to declining training standards and the changed role of the StuG, I doubt they were more effective artillery men than they were tankers.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the StuG. It is a very deadly vehicle if used correctly, but by 1944 it wasn't what I would consider a great infantry support vehicle. Again, the StuH 42 and various other armored howitzer vehicles were better able to support the infantry against infantry. So in a general situation I would welcome having a StuG at my disposal, but if I am going after only soft stuff I would *much* rather take along a StuH or other infantry support AFV instead. And if I were the Americans, a 75mm Sherman would do, but a 105mm support Sherman would do much nicer!

Steve