Lordfluffers Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 Just a thought, but anyone who lives in Europe knows the majority of Churches don't look like they do in CM. Im no architect expert but I know most European churchs are designed in a cross/crucifix layout with the spire at the head. The current style seems more American to me. Is it be possible to modify the shape and appearance of churches to give them a more European look? [This message has been edited by Lordfluffers (edited 11-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 Specifically, the churches in CM lack a transept. Then again, I wouldn't have even noticed if you hadn't mentioned it, Squire Luffers. Bloody peasant... ------------------ I remember it perfectly: The Germans wore grey; you wore blue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 Well, unfortunately, all 3D models in CM are hard-coded. No 3rd Party 3D models are allowed in CM's engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus: Well, unfortunately, all 3D models in CM are hard-coded. No 3rd Party 3D models are allowed in CM's engine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Now, that's one cool feature for CM2! ------------------ My squads are regular, must be the fibre in the musli... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 Actually, the Church in CM1 is modeled EXCATLY on one I have a photo of in Normandy. Im not saying all Churchs in Europe are like this one (and the 3D model was done long before I did the origional texture), but at least one certainally is! In CM2 we are hoping to have a much wider range of buildings available in the editor. We havnt work out any details here yet, but with the amount of urban combat on the Eastern Front, this will be high on the list... Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted November 25, 2000 Share Posted November 25, 2000 Kwazy Dawg, I have to support what you are saying. As far as the shape goes, there are some churches in Normandy that look very similar. I saw one in Villers-Bocage 2 weeks ago (pictures coming). BUT, the actual appearance of the stonework is very distinctive over there, and I hope I can get some mod-hounds to work on it after they see my pictures... I took alot for that very purpose. My wife was pissed, she wanted pictures of the Louvre... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordfluffers Posted November 25, 2000 Author Share Posted November 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *Captain Foobar*: As far as the shape goes, there are some churches in Normandy that look very similar. I saw one in Villers-Bocage 2 weeks ago (pictures coming). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, I agree that there are some Churchs that shape but the vast majority across Europe are shaped like a cross with the spire at the end short end, this was the format for Churches from the late 1st millenium i.e. pre 1000AD to the early 20th century. By cross shape, I mean from the air most Churchs look like a cross (Just making sure you know what I mean). Also will there be industrial buildings, fortifications etc in CM2, it would be cool fighting through the Tractor Factory in Stalingrad, or charging the defensive forts around Sevastopol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffRaider Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 On the subject of churches, those little villages in QBs can sure have a lot of churches, huh? I've seen as many as four churches in a town with around twelve buildings total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tris Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 I'm no authority on the physical layout of the vast majority of the churches in Europe but I've lived in Spain and I can't recall any churches laid out in the shape of a cross. Must have been some, no doubt, but I can't recall a single one. I've spent no little time in France as well (I lived in San Sebastian, almost on the border) and the same goes for my church experience there--though admittedly I've little interest in church architecture so it isn't as if I spent a lot of time studying these things. This is only my general impression. If I had to voice criticism of the original artwork it would be how "new" everything appeared. Also, how bright the landscape was, which is particularly apparent now that we can do A-B comparisons with the so-called subdued mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 Hi Guys, Foob, I look forward to seeing some of those piccies, are you planning on posting them on a web page? If so, make sure you let me know the address Lord, CM2 wouldnt be CM2 without factories, hehe. Ive read account of factories being fought over at one end and turning out T-34's at the other. Im not sure of the deatils here yet, but you can expect to see them in CM2. Jeff....Ill look into that, hehe. Tris, Ive been following the debate on the subdued graphics with interest. To be honest, I dont have a big problem with the brightness of the origional CM textures. In fact, many of the textures such as the trees were taken straight out of a digital camera and placed in the game. Im not sure if the sun is just brighter where I live, but on a sunny day the world is indeed bright I think this is why Ive noticed that when anyone take pictures of the subdued look to show off new textures, they always seem to take them on an overcast day, hehe. That being said though, I think what people are noticing is that maybe the colours are probably a little too 'rich' in colour. On top of that, I think that although the standard graphics looked about the right brightness in a sunny battle, they looked too bright for an overcast battle. I have a few ideas of how we can change this in CM2, but Ill probably bring then up with people when we get closer to working on them. Thanks Guys Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tris Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 Perhaps I should have enclosed "bright" in quotation marks. I didn't mean to refer to only the brightness, per se, of a sunny day--as in how much ambient light is actually reflected--but also to the art's appearance in too "bright" a fashion. Let me explain. Little in Europe, even today's modern and relatively affluent western Europe, is rendered in the same wild and free-blown pastel palette that we find in the usual American landscape. I dare say that the Europe this game wants to portray, the Europe of WW II vintage, sported even less of our American "brightness," especially after a few years of that dreadful, ongoing conflict. The Europe I experienced when I made my home there, call it ten years ago, was certainly "subdued" in almost all manner as regards color when compared to the city I live in today (San Francisco), and this effect just didn't seem to be properly emphasized with the original CMBO artwork. And we're just taking buildings here and, to a degree, foliage and such. The vehicles depicted in the original .BMP set have without a doubt been improved along the way--which isn't to chastise anyone for the original art, just to acknowledge that it has since been trumped and over-trumped by images a whole lot more realistic, not to mention more photogenically complementary to the subject at hand. The same might be said for unit uniforms. Of course as with all things art it's really about what pleases the individual, and if it does please you then go with it and you can't be too far wrong. [This message has been edited by Tris (edited 11-25-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 Tris, I think I do understand where you are coming from, and to be honest I agree. As you say I dont think brightness is quite the right word, but I do believe the are as I mentioned too rich in colour. I based most of the buildings in CM from photos a friend of mine too whilst visiting france. In fact, many of the buildings are direct scans of these photos. Hehe, maybe he took photos of the brighter buildings in the country, Im not sure, Ill have to ask, hehe.. I agree though, they should have looked less rich and more well, dirty For CM2 I wont be working on it in my spare time after my day job though, hehe, and Im looking forward to being able to spend much more time on these smaller details I already have a pretty large collection of books on Eastern European architecture. [This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 11-25-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordfluffers Posted November 26, 2000 Author Share Posted November 26, 2000 triss point taken, but Mediterrean Europe has a very different architectural style to northern Europe. Norman, Anglo-Saxon, Franco and Celtic architecture is very different to Spanish, Italian and southern French architecture, if you visit Britain, Normandy (Northern France in general), and Northern Germany you will find the vast majority of churchs laid out in a cross form. It was the architectural style, churches even had to lay in a certain direction as did their graveyards. Maybe I shouldn't have said all of Europe, as there is obviously different styles across Europe, but the region CMBO is involved in, particularly Normandy, cross shaped Churches are the norm. I'll see if I can find some pictures but I dont know how to post them anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 I was stationed in Bavaria for 7 years and all the Catholic churches there (Bavaria is about 85% Catholic) were of the onion dome variety whereas the Protestant churches were of the cross type. By onion dome I mean similar to the Russian Orthodox style. ------------------ Nicht Schiessen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 Kwazy, my brother is going to scan them in for me. If it is feasable, I will at least put them up up a link here. BUT, I have a ton of them. Slapdragon said he might hook me up with some webspace. I would be very pleased to see a mod result from my pictures. Since I am a lazy bastard, and no talent hack, it is probably the closest I can come to a contribution around here.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 I've wondered if the "bright" graphics in CM were due to it being limited to 16 bit color depth. I know in Unreal Tournament changing from 32 to 16 bit makes the picture noticeably brighter. If CM2 supports 32 bit color this problem may disappear. ------------------ You mean my Java coded Real Time Bar Fight Simulator Madmatt Mission: Beyond BiteMe ISN'T going to be published?!? Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordfluffers Posted November 26, 2000 Author Share Posted November 26, 2000 CMBO is based mainly in Northern France. Look at the architecture there, particularly Norman achitecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tris Posted November 26, 2000 Share Posted November 26, 2000 triss point taken, but Mediterrean Europe has a very different architectural style to northern Europe. Norman, Anglo-Saxon, Franco and Celtic architecture is very different to Spanish, Italian and southern French architecture, if you visit Britain, Normandy (Northern France in general), and Northern Germany you will find the vast majority of churchs laid out in a cross form. It was the architectural style, churches even had to lay in a certain direction as did their graveyards. Maybe I shouldn't have said all of Europe, as there is obviously different styles across Europe, but the region CMBO is involved in, particularly Normandy, cross shaped Churches are the norm. I'll see if I can find some pictures but I dont know how to post them anyway. Please do post any pics you come across. It seems to me that I have read something or other re the layout of graveyards in juxtaposition to the church, per your note, and I don't argue (cannot argue in light of my ignorance) that churches of Protestant denominations, as opposed to the Catholic faith, were not designed in forms of the cross. I just didn't see this in my travels. Dan: even in the northern areas of Europe earth colors are the norm. You'll see use of more bright colors, I think, in the far northern regions, but earth colors even there still predominate. This is partly cultural (certain sub societies of greater Europe today stress subdued color for clothing, especially men's clothing--for example, look to the Basque country) and partly practical in origin (earth colors have always been the easiest to get pigments for--even in American rural areas it is earth colors you see most often for the reason they're both traditional and used to be, at least, the cheapest to obtain). Anyway, this is why I think Magua's buildings are so appealing--he seems to understand the European ethic, its dynamic as this relates to architecture, and subsequently his buildings art reflects the region's peculiar societal cast. Of course Magua also aces his armor mods, so maybe he's just some frustrated Rembrandt who happens to play wargames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *Captain Foobar*: Kwazy, my brother is going to scan them in for me. If it is feasable, I will at least put them up up a link here. BUT, I have a ton of them. Slapdragon said he might hook me up with some webspace. I would be very pleased to see a mod result from my pictures. Since I am a lazy bastard, and no talent hack, it is probably the closest I can come to a contribution around here.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Foob will have a GB on my slapdragon server for his very own travel photographs page. I may expand it to include other peoples travel and tank pics if that is something anyone likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 Lordfluff is indeed correct in that the basic form of almost any church in Europe is the cross. Having said that, these churches have often been added to over hundreds of years, or were built in such a way that if you are not interested in the architectural history of church building you will not notice it. Particularly for smaller churches, this is also not always noticeable from the outside. The Transept should be, though. English churches are all in a clearly recognisable cross-form (well all I have seen so far). Almost all of those I have seen that were built shortly post-conquest (12th/13th century) sport this form - but then that coincided with a major shift in ecclesiatical architecture, and is not an indicator that Norman churches would look similar. I have never been to Normandy, but my suspicion would be that the church in CM is in effect based on an old chapel, since that is what it looks like. Which would be okay, since mostly the maps depict small villages, which may not have been able to support a big church anyway. Spanish churches look very different from what I understand, probably because of the architectonic influence of the Moors. They can not be used to draw conclusions about the looks of churches in North-West Europe. Bavaria, Baden and Austria have a strange difference in church design to the rest of Germany, as Splinty correctly pointed out. You won't find the onion dome variety elsewhere in what was West-Germany (not sure about the south-east (Saxony) but my immediate assumption would be that it also looks different. Church architecture, as you may have noticed by now is a topic of endless fascination to me, because it reflects the social history of places in one single place. You can see how important places that have now sunk back into obscurity (e.g. in the Cotswolds) must have been by the size and richness of decoration on a church. Looking at the gravestones, and tracing people is great fun. ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-28-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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