Using AP on light vehicles?

[Ben Galanti]

I was playing around with the Villers-Bocage scenario (I'm sure that thing is the bain of Charles existance with respect to tank AI ) Anyway, I noticed that the Tigers tended to use AP against the Carriers and the Halftracks? Is this historically accurate? I would think that an AP round froma Tiger would go in one side and out the other (which I know isn't modeld in CM, granted, I saw a carrier take a side penetration from an 88 and not get knocked out ). I would think that HE would be a more appropriate round for the very thinly armored vehicles. Caan any of you folks who know a lot more about this stuff then I do comment on this?

Ben

[elementalwarre]

when you saw a carrier take an 88 AP round in the side and survive, IMHO you saw a round go right through

[This message has been edited by elementalwarre (edited 08-26-2000).]

[Ben Galanti]

Well, that's what I'd think of it as, by Charles 9and/or Steve) has said specifically that CM does _not_ model this.

[Ben Galanti]

Bump to the top.

Any answers?

[Vanilla Thunder]

Can't say for sure, Ben, but..

I figure that, for a jeep, and most likely for a halftrack, as well, any round from a Tiger, Panzer, or pretty much any German tank for that matter, would mean certain doom. Think about it. You're driving a half track along, say, at 20 MPH. Scenario one: An AP round fired from a Tiger rips through your vehicle, killing a crewman and injuring two others. Time to bail out!

Scenario two: Again, driving along nice and smooth, and a Tiger lets fly with an HE round, and connects with your vehicle, say, in the rear quadrant. This not only paralyzes your vehicle, but quite literally blows it apart. Either way, you see, the tank's job is done! ((Poster's note.. all of this is, of course, IMHO! ))

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"NO! There is no try..DO..or do not!"

~Yoda, Empire Strikes Back 1980

[Mikeydz]

I don't think Ben is arguing that the AP round would be ineffective, but that it's almost a waste of a round against a light vehicle. Shouldn't the Tiger use, assuming it has plenty left, an HE round, considering that penetration is pretty much a non-issue. Save the AP for any potential tanks that may come around the next corner.

I haven't tested the new patch with the Villars scenario, so I don't know if what he's writing about is a true problem, but I think that's the gist of what he is saying.

[Aacooper]

I've seen many circumstances where tanks (even a little with 1.05) use AP against halftracks. It would seem to me the HE round would get the vehicle and its passengers. I'd think an AP round could pass right through the back of an empty halftrack and cause no other damage.

[Ben Galanti]

Mikeydz is right. I'm sure AP is plenty effective in these cases, but I figured HE would be just as effective. In fact, I'd think HE would be more effective, becuase even if the round misses, the blast might do some damage (which I know is something that CM models). That and I'd think that the crews would want to save the AP for something that really required it...

Ben

[Guest Big Time Software]

Guns will sometimes fire HE at light vehicles. It all depends on how much AP and HE they've got on board at the time. In most CM battles, vehicles rarely run out of AP, but frequently run out of HE. So the TacAI is programmed to use the AP unless it's starting to run low relative to the HE.

Charles

[John Kettler]

Here's a real world data point for this thread. Years ago, I saw a photo of a U.S. halftrack which had been hit by an 88 in North Africa. The AP hit went right through the armored radiator covers, through the engine compartment, emerging at roughly floor height. The projectile passed through the entire vehicle and exited the rear armor. Outwardly, the vehicle looked fine; the interior was thoroughly shredded, as was the crew no doubt.

Of course, I can imagine situations in which an AP hit on light armor would pass through doing almost nothing. I believe there are such accounts concerning Stuarts in the Western Desert, but generally, a solid hit by AP on light armor should be effective. The secondary missiles generated by the penetration alone should suffice to wound/kill the occupants even if the vehicle isn't destroyed. On the other hand, how well would your car work if someone blasted the interior with 00 buckshot?

An AP hit on light armor would be much worse than that.

Regards,

John Kettler

[This message has been edited by John Kettler (edited 08-28-2000).]

[Ben Galanti]

Thanks for the post Charles, that's fine by me.

John, thanks for that tidbit, I always find it interesting to hear the real world account. My issue was as much the fact that with HE, a near hit would likely immobolize (or even take out) a HT or carrier, while with AP you need to actually hit.

Especially with the German tanks, they do run out of HE easily (that's why I love those Shermans )

Ben