Dale H Posted July 23, 1999 Share Posted July 23, 1999 As I recall from reading "Closing with The Enemy" that wp was used by Shermans after they busted through a hedgerow in Normandy. One round was placed at each opposite far angle to take care of mg crews routinely placed there by the Jerries & then tank's mg used to spray entire back wall. This practice evolved using the toothed Shermans or demolition support to bust through the hedgerow & the tank/infantry combo to clear the field enclosed by the bocage. Would love to see it modeled. Dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Deans Posted July 24, 1999 Share Posted July 24, 1999 I posted this in a relatively simmilar disscussion elsewhere ....A quote from John Ellis' "The Sharp End" (pp133-134). It is itself a quote from an officer from the 3rd Bn Scots Guards (in fact an armoured unit) about the fighting in Normandy "We advanced with the infantry right around us, to protect us from bazooka [panzerfaust/schreck] men and snipers, and from hedge to hedge, making each hedge a bound. Each hedge was practically a tank obstacle anyway, as they were always on top of very high earth banks. As we came through a hedge we made the infantry look first to see if there was a Panther in the next field. If not, we went through into the middle of the field, brought up the supporting [tank] Troops up to the hedge, and then settled down to a quarter of an hour's speculative shooting up of the next hedge, HE into likely looking places, and Besa everywhere, including the tree tops. All this you must imagine happening under intense mortar fire and very considerable small arms fire........coming from all over the place, but from nowhere you could pinpoint it.....This may sound a very slow method of advance but it paid time and time again." When it boils down to it, no matter what country you're from, you've got to do what you've got to do...... Rob Deans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toni_Top_Gun Posted July 9, 2000 Share Posted July 9, 2000 Read the same thing in "Citizen Soldiers" by Stephen Ambrose. So I was somewhat surprised when I read the manual and it stated that WP was not used much in combat other than marking targets. ASL had WP grenades in it, even for the infantry. By the way I miss the ability to let The infantry pop smoke. /Toni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted July 9, 2000 Share Posted July 9, 2000 I believe its been discussed to death if you use the search you will get the party line on this. I disagree and believe the immediacy of the WP shells/grenades should be modeled. They produced a nice quick smoke screen. I can live with not modeling the casualties they caused but to ignore sherman 75mm, arty 105mm, 81mm and 4.2" mortar, and even inf WP grenades seems ..I dunno..Unamerican. They were great for starting fires also. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon44 Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 White phosphorus,,,a very pretty round to watch go off,,,as long as youre buttoned up or far away. NOT to be used against people,,,yeah right,,,hmmmm that belt buckle is kind of like armor aint it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 First off whether you realise it or not, a lot of the rounds already being used in CM are WP. Since WP was the primary smoke compound for US forces, (I.e. all your mortars), though other compounds were used also. Some design decisions were undertaken not to model WP's offensive capabilities for some good reasons, (i.e. see my comments re: ASl below) though whether that'll stick as permanent I don't know. As for infantry smoke grenades, I can assure you it has been exhaustibly researched from just about everything in writing, historical manuals, accounts, documentary films and pictures, and interviews with real WW2 vets. The upshot is this. Yes there was a fair amount of smoke grenades around used primarily for marking but also on occasion for masking. Little or no hard data, (Outside of production figures and smoke grenade types), some circumstancial data and also little anecdotal data. HOWEVER, it was not used to the extent where it would be accurate to just give infantry squads and others a carte blanche ability to deploy smoke grenades. Smoke usage in general WW2 is definately a very underreported field for a number of reasons I'll not go into here. Apart from all the other research, I did interview or talk to at this point five WW2 infantrymen (not truck drivers or cannon cockers mind you) who all fought in the NW theater '44-45. While yes most of them at one point or another could relate an anecdotal story of a smoke grenade being tossed for screening, it was definately not the norm or SOP that it came to be post WW2. (As someone with, among oter things, 23 years combat arms experience I very much know what to look for when researching something like this.) And it certainly was not at the very ahistorical level of smoke grenade usage seen in ASL, (though a few other games (most notably Critical Hit's: Combat) have done a better job of providing an occasional capability. However there was also the game engine and getting the thing out to take into account. As we start gearing up for CM2 testing and research, there will be some focus on my end of discussing perhaps a combat engineer smoke grenade/smoke pot capability based on what I have available for research and what some otehr very capable people have sent me, but certainly the farther back you go into teh war the less mention of smoke grenades at all for anything other than a specialist assualt engineer capability. Hope that helps a wee bit. Certainly, anyone with any research materials on smoke grenade or smoke usage in general can send it along to me at los@cris.com particularly any Eastern Front stuff you have, it will be much appreciated, and if anyone Historical PHDs out there are looking for a good untouched subject for a thesis, this is it. Cheers... Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 I have a question as far as smoke grenades go. I have no personal experience with them, so I can only speculate. But it seems to me that to provide anything like an adequate screen even for a squad you'd have to place 3 or 4 grenades, especially if there is any air movement. If you expect to do this more than once a day, a squad is going to be lugging a lot of smoke grenades around. Since a man can only carry so much stuff, if he packs a smoke grenade he's going to have to leave something else behind, like a fragmentation grenade. I suspect if I were an infantryman, I'd rather have the frag and hope the 4.2s are going to lay down the smoke, which after all was their job. Another thing is that in accounts of battles, except for set-piece attacks, I never hear much about smoke being used anyway. Now it could be that it is being omitted from the accounts for some reason. Or it could be that smoke was held to be a two edged sword that could hide the enemy as well as the user. After the shooting had been going on for a few minutes, especially if HE were involved, there were usually plenty of obscurants floating about the battlefield anyway. I think few soldiers wanted to add to them unless they were in a hurry to get out of a situation where they were seriously outgunned. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Michael, First off yes that's true a decent smoke screen requires a number of grenades but then again that's a function of the size of the area you want to mask and the environmental conditions. But then again when you see grenades thrown in Cm it may not necessarily represent only one grenade, it may represent multiple grenades so don't draw too much from the graphical representation of the shot. Second off, normally you will carry more smoke grenades then Frags, but again this is a function of the mission. But nowadays, smokes are vital to operations whether they are marking or masking. Even in WW2 smoke usage in general wildly exceeded the expectations of pre-war smoke advocates. (I'm talking smoke pots, generators, mortars and artillery rounds here not necessarily just grenades) Another point, people seem to think why bother using smoke since the bullets can still go through it, however anything that increases your chance of survival by a little bit is something you use. As far as it's underreporting. Even today where smoke usage is bread and butter for any modern army, you see little written on it outside of a few specialist manuals and very seldom do you see it even in personal accounts of documentaries. (And alomst never in movies) Of course why take picture of smoke, a photographer normally wants to SEE SOMETHING As far as battlefield smoke and dust, there's always smoke on the battlefield, tons of it actually. In fact in dry conditions there are invaraibly fires started due to tracers and whatnot. However when you use smoke to mask it's usually placed to obscure a certain LOS from one area to another to aow a unit to move rather than just blanket the entire front. Proper smoke usage will obscure the movement of your manuever elements while still allowing your overwatch elements to suppress targets. It's just another tool which has to be properly used. In fact The AI in CM is quite adept at using smoke. Next time they do, take a close look at what they're trying to accomplish with that smoke barrage. (Not talking about indiv vehicle smoke dischargers) Cheers... Los [This message has been edited by Los (edited 07-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookie Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Los, Not to go off topic,But did you play Air Warrior at all in the past,I'm trying to place where I recognize you from... ------------------ -Rookie Cactus Air Force Homepage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Yes I was flying Air Warrior since way back in the early days of Genie. cheers... Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Wilder Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 So this Dale H, is this the Dale H I know? Dale, is that you...here at CM? Well, I'll just be doggoned! There are still miracles ------------------ Wild Bill Lead Tester/Designer Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord billw@matrixgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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