Talorc Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 Can anyone point me to somewhere where I can get some info on the various Sherman Types? I currently have no idea whether or not a Sherman M4A3(76)W(MOO)HVSS is better than a M4A2W+XYZ PK (EX) or whatnot I've had a search on the board, but most of the posts regarding Sherman types seem to be real detailed, and I need something to start off on. Any pointers on which are the best Sherman Variants would be much appreciated also. If you ask me the Brit system of giving the Shermans Mk numbers or names had a lot going for it.. Thanks ------------------ Talorc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 It's actually pretty simple and easier to understand than the Brit system once you learn the lingo. Basically: W = Wet Stowage ( this means the tank is less likely to blow up if hit) 75 = 75mm gun. Great HE potential BUT it can only kill Pz IIIs and IVs and StuGs. It CANNOT kill a Panther or Tiger from the front. 76 = 76mm gun. Can kill a Panther or Tiger frontally BUT you need to be damn close. HVSS = An improved suspension system ( don't bother too much about that for our purposes). Jumbo = EXTRA ARMOUR. A Jumbo has a VERY good chance of surviving a hit from an 88 or 75l/70 if hit frontally. + = Extra armour. Not as much extra armour as a Jumbo BUT enough to make any Sherman + pretty safe vs the 75mm L48 you find on Psz IVs and StuGs. It is still vulnerable to Panthers and Tigers though. So, let's say you were facing an M4 Jumbo (w) 76 --- This would be a Sherman with enough extra armour that it has a good chance of surviving a hit from an 88 or 75mm L/70 ( carried on the Panther) and is almost immune from being destroyed by Pz IVs and StuGs PLUS it carries a 76mm gun which can even kill Panthers and Tigers from in front. If you had an M4A3 (75)+ W THEN you'd have a tank which had a gun which could kill StuGs and Pz IVs and had enough extra armour to give it a fair chance of surviving a hit from a Pz IV or StuG PLUS had wet stowage so that if it was hit the crew had a good chance of surviving. Don't worry about all that M4a3 or M4A1 crap. Just key in on the W ( crew survivability), + ( a bit of extra armour), Jumbo ( a LOT of extra armour), whether it is a 75 or 76 ( or 105 ( really only good for anti-infantry work) ) and whether or not it is a Jumbo ( Jumbo 76s are the best US Shermans. I'd prefer a Firefly myself but that wasn't a US tank). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talorc Posted July 22, 2000 Author Share Posted July 22, 2000 Ah thanks Fionn! Covers all of it nicely thanks - It was the A1, A2, A3 stuff that was confusing me the most. Most of my previous tank knowledge was limited to German and Russian types, had no clue on the American types. ------------------ Talorc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn: So, let's say you were facing an M4 Jumbo (w) 76 --- This would be a Sherman with enough extra armour that it has a good chance of surviving a hit from an 88 or 75mm L/70 ( carried on the Panther) and is almost immune from being destroyed by Pz IVs and StuGs PLUS it carries a 76mm gun which can even kill Panthers and Tigers from in front. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I tried to get some good screen shots last night of a dual between a Jumbo & a Tiger1 & Tiger 2 that ran from 280ms down to 82ms ranges, in Bill's revisied Elsdorf scenerio. The Jumbo slugged it out with the Tiger 1 will ignoring the Tiger 2, who scored multiple frontal hits, with no effect at 100ms, the Jumbo after takeing like 14 hits from both Tigers, began reversing and survived to 110ms when both the Tiger 1 & Jumbo fired at same time, the Tiger1 got a front turret penetration finaly, and the Jumbo last shot took out the Tiger1's gun 8P. Anyway I had some screen shots but forgot you had to cut & paste them as they were taken 8(. It was an intense lil battle,in a huge battle though. Ever notice how you can get caught up watching 1 units battle & forgewt about the rest of the battle rageing around you 8). Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>76 = 76mm gun. Can kill a Panther or Tiger frontally BUT you need to be damn close.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As many of us found to our regret/joy - The 76mm armed Hellcat from the beta scenario Last Defense could take out the Tiger from about 800m if you were lucky/unlucky (and the shell didn't break up). Plus, as the war marches on, 76mm and 17lber guns have greater supplies of tungsten ammo (nasty penetrating ability - and the availabilty of tungsten also affects vehicle price) Jason [This message has been edited by guachi (edited 07-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 Pleasure Talorc, To tell you the truth I'm more of a Soviet and German tank guy myself so if someone asked me about the armour on the M4A3 vs the M4A1 I'd have no idea. I figure that they're all pretty much the same ( in terms of killability to my Panthers) and that only + and Jumbos need to be differentiated. It's little rules of thumb like this that make gameplay quick AND that CM encourages. I couldn't tell you the penetration of a 75 L/70 at 500 metres vs 30 degree plate BUT I do know that it usually brews up any ordinary Sherman and has a good chance of killing a + with the first shot. I also know it is pretty screwed vs a Jumbo. Simple rules, simply expressed but effective. CM really does reward this kind of thinking and frowns on all the " millimetric calculators" out there. John, Yes. In a current pBEM I'm just enthralled by an infantry vs tank battle on one side of the field and a couple of times have even forgotten to look at what happened on the other flank ( damn Shermans are cutting my infantry to shreds ;( ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 There isn't a hell of a lot of difference functionally between the A(n) models, except maybe the cast (A1) versus welded (all others) hulls, which may give the A1 some extra protection, but BTS will know the answer to that. Same holds for the British Shermans, but any Brit Sherman ending with a "C" in its title is one to treasure. To decode the Commonwealth names, the final letter in its title indicates what armament it has: A = 76mm gun (American type) B = 105mm howitzer C = 17 pounder (an awesome Tiger killer) ------------------ It's a mother-beautiful bridge and it's gonna be THERE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by guachi: As many of us found to our regret/joy - The 76mm armed Hellcat from the beta scenario Last Defense could take out the Tiger from about 800m if you were lucky/unlucky (and the shell didn't break up). Plus, as the war marches on, 76mm and 17lber guns have greater supplies of tungsten ammo (nasty penetrating ability - and the availabilty of tungsten also affects vehicle price) Jason <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well I'd say 800ms penetrations with the 76mm M93 APCR-T round is an bit optimistic especialy frontaly on a Panther. In live fire tests conducted on several captured Panthers in France in August 1944 76mm AP-T failed completly vs the glacis @ 300ms, & 76mm APCR-T penetrated the Panther glacis 1 out of 3 shots @ 300ms, both ammo types had better %'s vs the front turret, but it decreased with range. It should increase even in late 44 APCR-T was not that common in US tanks, as they generaly still had to scrounge it from the TD units who recieved the APCR-T as standard supply unlike the tank units who recieved AP-T standard. Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 So what's that "easy eight" thingy then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpion Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 Fionn, Does CM accurately model armor thickness & round penetration, and you're simply 'playing it by ear?' If you're sticking to hard and fast rules the same way a real Sherman TC would, that is pretty neat. Thanks! -Scorp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted July 22, 2000 Share Posted July 22, 2000 The Easy eight is just an M4A3e8 IIRC. Just a subtype of the A3. For our purposes it isn't at all different to any other A3. Scorpion, Yes, CM models all these things in great detail... My point simply was that I don't bother with counting the exact range in meters to the target or anything like that. I just take a LOS reading, say " Well, it's about 500 metres away and is just a normal Sherman. I've got a Panther. Great, if I hit it I kill it. " CM really favours a kind of "seat of the pants" type of play IMO. Play it by ear instead of by CRT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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