Jeff Duquette Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 I posted this on a somewhat unrelated thread…thought I would try it in an independent thread. Run it up the flagpole and see who salutes or who urinates on the pole…so to speak. Personal Opinion here...CM2 Campaign Layer: I think it would be interesting if BTS expanded upon operations in CM2. Something akin to Close Combat V’s Campaign layer would be an interesting addition, with the stipulation that a campaign game editor is intrinsic to the game. The campaign layer could be a simplified version of an operational level wargame akin to a small game of Operational Art of War. A player commands a division or Corps at the operational\strategic level. For example ISS Panzer Korps Counter Attacks around Kharkov Winter 42-43...Mainstein’s Relief Attempt of Stalingrad…German relief attempt at Korsun...Segments of the Stalingrad Battles, etc. Operational\strategic layer moves are handled on a strategic layer map. Combat resolution at the strategic\operational level is handled via small unit combat actions on a formal Combat Mission map. A certain amount of abstraction would be required to keep actual tactical battle sizes manageable\playable. So perhaps a battalion at the operational level is modeled as a combined arms company during combat resolution on the tactical level. Results of the combined arms company tactical battle would be considered to be reflective of the entire battalions performance. Attrition within individual units is tracked between battle rounds. Practical Limitations and Immersion: I don’t pretend to know much about wargame coding so I don’t know what practical road blocks would be encountered to curtail such a game addition. What I do know is that putting a series of tactical level engagements into a larger scheme\big picture context is a lot of fun, and adds numerous additional challenges to players. The results are furthering player game immersion with respect to husbanding resources for the long haul…allowing some control of operational level maneuvers…where and when battles are fought, and what units will fight these battles, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 I'd love something like this, but I imagine the roadblocks, as you put it would be rather steep. I suspect if it was easy, or possibly even feasible, to combine a topnotch tactical simulator with a topnotch operational/strategic simular, some bright young wargamer would've done it. Then again, CM seems like one of those "why didn't I think of that" ideas, so maybe I'm wrong ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted October 31, 2000 Author Share Posted October 31, 2000 Actually as I had indicated it has been done by ATOMIC in Close Combat 4 and 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 You've got my vote.... I would LOVE to see something like this..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 Uh, yeah, but I don't think Atomic did it particularly well... ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted October 31, 2000 Author Share Posted October 31, 2000 Chupacabra: Uh...so you dislike the idea of a campaign layer or you just don’t think its been done? Cause if you dislike it thats fine...but if you think it hasnt been done...well thats another story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiram Sedai Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 I would love the idea of a CM Campaign. I would also like to see a tank or platoon start out green and end up veteran by the end of the campaign. ------------------ Did someone compare this to the Peng thread? I've apologized for less. -Anonymous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 Uh, read my second post in the thread. I don't dislike the idea, I'm just not sure it's possible (yet) to combine a top-notch operational-level wargame with a top-notch tactical wargame. Yes, the last 2 CC games had a strategic level, but I found it sort of...well, limp, and not very well done. Not enough options to make it worth the while, IMO. I think I could do without something like that being tacked on to an otherwise fantastic game like CM. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted October 31, 2000 Author Share Posted October 31, 2000 Hiram Sedai & Fubar: Thanks for your support Chupacabra: Uh…I too like drinking beer and making loud noises in public places too So CM is the first with an operational level and tac layer all rolled into one. Its been cutting edge on a lot of other things…why not this as well. Where there is a will there is a way (or in American terms where there is a Market there is a way). Doesn’t Shogun have some kinda campaign layer? Dunno haven’t played it. I have heard some folks raive about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Smith Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 Actually, I think a division would be a reasonable size to try this with. You really wouldn't have to 'downsize' a battalion into a reinforced company-battalion level battles are doable with CM -lots of the scenarios included are at battalion level. So, to simulate a division, you would have roughly 10 (maybe 10-15) battalions to maneuver on the strategic map-some would be front line battalions, others may be parcelled out (AT bns parcelled out to infantry bns, maybe the lone armored bn would be parcelled out to infantry bns in an infantry division, etc). The tough part would be simulating all the other stuff-how do you simulate resupply? What if one company in a bn is worn out, needs resupply, but three others are fresh and want to continue to advance? Now that bn is broken into two manuver units. What if you want to send individual at guns to cover important crossroads in support of a battalion (and not the whole AT bn at once)? How do you simulate the need to move artillery bns? The possibility that they will be overrun? The laying of landlines, preplotted targets, etc? How do you simulate overrunning or moving the maintenance shops? And how that movement affects tank replacement the next day? And these aren't minor issues-this stuff-breaking through to upset repair, resupply, preplotted artillery and preset artillery ammunition, this is all at the heart of maneuver warfare-its the whole point of the battle. It will be great when we can do it-but it is no minor undertaking-and will undoubtedly require as much research, coding, and playtesting as a whole new game. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 To quote myself - I'd love something like this. IF it can be done well, and without sacrificing CMs existing strength, namely deep, realistic tactical combat. If it's done well, I may have spontaneous multiple orgasms during gameplay, but I do suspect that it's a trickier proposition than perhaps you're suggesting. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dirkd1976 Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 Personally, I think this would be amazing. It would really draw you into the action, sending troops on suicide missions wouldn't be an option anymore if you know that you will need to use them again in a future battle. I don't know about the level of troops changing from Green to Regular to Veteran would be in the scope of this though. It would be nice to keep track of kills and such for squads as well as medals. I guess it would be ALOT of programming, so I'm not holding my breath for it. I guess I am keeping my fingers crossed for a more cleaned up version of the existing Operations. As it is right now, I never play operations, I just get to frustrated. Just my 2 cents. ------------------ Never mistake motion for action - Ernest Hemingway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 I like it. Do I think it will be done? No. Do I think it can be done? Yes, but not in the time frame given for CM2 or even CM3. But I still like it. ------------------ Jeff Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted October 31, 2000 Share Posted October 31, 2000 It's an interesting idea that lots of us have dreamt for in the past, but I don't think it will happen in the CM series. Why? Because BTS would need to write a completely new operational wargame, whether it's a "layer" or not. Given the examples of CC4 & 5, I would rather see improvements to the basic CM game than adding a mediocre or incomplete operational layer. Sure, they could write a really good wargame as a CM operational layer, but that might take another 2 years (that's about how long CM took). Yet another good idea that suffers from lack of resources. Sigh. ------------------ Cats aren't clean, they're covered with cat spit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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