Abbott Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Hello Matt. I enjoyed reading your posts in the two threads you mentioned. Brings back some fond memories. I agree instincts are the key developed from experience watching people. The clubs I worked were located in southern Ca. The “Australian Beach Club” was fun (about 300 per night), the larger club where I managed the crew has since been re-located to Nevada. It was in its heyday a few years back when Country Western music was the driving force behind clubs across the country. (Due to its owners it would be uncomfortable to mention its name, you probably understand). My fondest memories are of one customer who had a prosthesis device for a leg. Sometimes when he had too much to drink he would climb up on the taller round tables that encircled three sides of the dance floor, remove his prosthesis and wield it like a baseball bat while balancing on his real leg. He was a tough nut to crack! The funniest part was, he was such a nice guy, a couple weeks down the road we would let him back in! The club was remolded from a closed grocery market and had the double glass entry doors. One night at closing I was locking and un-locking the front doors as we moved the final die hards out. Two of my people behind me had finally given up on removing a drunken customer with words and physically picked him up. They picked him up in such a manner (as any two men who were to pick up and throw a large oblong object) swung him backwards and tossed him out the door. The problem being I had just closed the front doors! Needless to say the poor guy hitting ¾” plate glass head first and horizontally wasn’t pretty. Sorry to say it provided one heck of a laugh at the end of a long tiring shift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jdmorse: Say it ain't so, Steve <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey jdmorse, don't you think it is time for this class-action lawsuit after all? Or are you another one of the BTS personas (they're everywhere!!!)? ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weasel Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe Shaw: Weasel you weasel, click on the Smilies Legend link to the left of the message you want to send and it will show you how to post smilies properly. After all, if you're going to go the trouble of annoying Peng, learn to do it properly <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> By Jove, I think I've got it now Does this mean I have to follow the Peng thread now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Is it possible that the full moon is coming? The board seems a bit strange these days...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There does seem to be SOMETHING going around doesn't there ... after all, when the Peng thread represents a haven of normalcy, there's something wrong. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk: I never expected a response from them, I was just expecting a response from fellow gamers. Forums are different in that I don't think it's wrong to bring up the same topics. If people don't want to hear it, they can skip the topic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I suspect you'd think differently if you posted a question which you thought was the most super-important thing ever, and no one answered you. And very few people bother to post with issues they don't think are important. If BTS didn't answer people's questions, they'd get accused of not caring about the players. When they do, they get accused of being rude. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infohawk Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Los: Unfortunately, for that most minutest of fraction of posters that are making this most redundant of redundant discussions necessary, there's probably nothing you can say that would sink in. by Los (edited 08-31-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If YOU think it's redundant why don't YOU not post to this topic. It's SO easy. And thanks for being insulting LOS with the clueless stuff. It didn't help your argument. Attacking the person and ignoring their arguments doesn't really prove anything. This topic seems to be annoying a lot of people, what if they just stay away instead of posting, then it would die out? Personally, I enjoy it and will continue posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Does this mean I have to follow the Peng thread now?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You mean you don't already? BLASPHEMER! Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 OK, a more serious post here... My point is that the $45 purchase price does not give someone the right to abuse us, especially if done personally. If I could drive over to the person's house, and be sure that I walked out with every last bit and byte of Combat Mission, I would gladly leave a refund check behind. Combat Mission was built on customer service. That inovolved providing a forum for people to engage us in deep and meaningfull discussions, before and after release, so that CM would be as close to "perfect" as possible. We have spent thousands of hours doing this. Not because we have to, but because we want to. The majority of the discussions we have been involved in were positive and many directly influenced the way the game was crafted. We have always prided ourselves on being accessible and thoughtfull. Never rude. Not so long as the people in the discussion showed an ounce of respect. Heck, I don't even mind angry posts when they are clear, coherent, and most of all... relevant. I always try to calm the person down so we can talk about the issues instead of battling with emotions. But things are different when the post is rude from the get go. I don't mean angry, I mean RUDE. There is a huge difference. I can hold my temper pretty well (look at the Stransky thread again!), but I refuse to kiss ass. It only reenforces the poster's childish concept of adult type discussions. If the person apologizes for the tone, and then clearly states what it is that is upsetting him... fine, I can burry the hatchet faster than anybody else I know. But if the person keeps it up... why bother wasting my time? Because he paid $45 for our game? Sorry, but that isn't the way it works. Purchase price does not mean people can behave like we are their slaves. CM took 3 years to this point, and we didn't get paid a dime until it shipped. What is more, we chose to make a game for a niche that has been all but abandoned. And not only that, we didn't just try and spit out rehashed versions of what has been in existance for the last 40 years. That should count for something all on its own. No, you don't need to kiss our asses for this, but please show a bit of respect. If you do, there will be no "rudeness" evident. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philistine Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk: IMO, I don't think you should respond to everyone , but if you do, arse-kissing will prevent offending anyone, even though most people aren't botherd by it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'd like you to think about something and then answer a question, if you would. Why do you think BTS should "arse-kiss" or even be polite to someone who is being rude and obnoxious? The general reason given that "the customer is always right" is a grit-your-teeth-and-bear-it type of thing that management imposes on customer-service people in order not to alienate future customers. One of the benefits of being an owner of a business is that you get to decide whether the $45 you might get on a future sale (not all of which, of course, is profit, so it is actually substantially less) is worth "arse-kissing" someone who has been rude and abusive to you. It is purely a business decision (based on non-business factors). I fail to see what a customer can legitimately complain about. If you have been rude, you deserve everthing you get. If not, why do you care how a rude person is treated. There is nothing I hate more than people being rude and obnoxious to people who they know have to "arse-kiss" them back (waitresses, bank-tellers, shop-clerks, etc.) Generally, if those people were ever treated that way by someone else, they would go ballistic. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> When people criticize CM, don't take it personally!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Uh...this has been their life's work for three years. They're not supposed to take unjustified and obnoxious criticisms personally? Actually, I've been astonished by the level of restraint that they have shown both in responding and allowing threads to remain open. --Philistine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuse Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 I've followed most of the stuff that's been going on and just can't help but add/detract a little from this. As a student, which I assume most of us have been at one point or another imagine this. You are assigned a gigantic project that is to take an entire term. Now, this project is basically your child. It dictates your entire life. You spend every day working on it, don't take weekends up to contribute more time to it. Skip a vacation that you'd been wanting to take because that would be time away from your project. Now, 6 months later you finally finish it and present it to your Proffesor. He takes a cursory look at it, throws it in the garbage and berates you about it being a steaming pile of ****. Now, how do you respond to this? Apologize for not spending more time on it? You might. I on the other hand would probably cold-cock the insufferable prick. The gentlemen at BTS spent years fine tuning this masterpiece and I think that the least we can do is treat them with respect when we ask for enhancements. ------------------ Upon the fields of friendly strife, are sown the seeds of Victory. ---Douglas McArthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dittohead Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 If you have been assimilated then we are all one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk: Attacking the person and ignoring their arguments doesn't really prove anything. This topic seems to be annoying a lot of people, what if they just stay away instead of posting, then it would die out? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You are ignoring our arguments, you know. It's a two way street. Oh, and you also say that it's not the same people answering every question. Well, I'd be willing to bet that 99% of the questions asked on this board are answered by 5% of the board's members. With the exception of a few posts announcing patches, since the game was released, I haven't seen a single message from either Steve or Charles that wasn't in response to a player's post. So yes, I think my comparison was fairly accurate. The same few people always do wind up answering the questions. And when those questions don't get answered, those people get accused of being rude to newbies. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Philistine: I'd like you to think about something and then answer a question, if you would. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Philistine, vergebliche Liebesmüh, as we say at home (love's labour lost). He is a troll without realising it. Just capable of posting, but neither capable of listening nor considering the other side of the story. At all. Joe, God save us if you're right... ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infohawk Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fuse: I on the other hand would probably cold-cock the insufferable prick. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Getting angry and defensive (even when you have worked on something for a long time) seems to me to be a worse response then sucking it up and taking it like a man. Everybody gets criticized. How you respond to it is the test of character. And I'm not saying the moderator didn't behave like a man or anything negative like that. Their view is reasonable. BTS stated its point, which is reasonable. They don't want to take abuse just for extra purchases. That is totally respectable. [This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).] [This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infohawk Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra: You are ignoring our arguments, you know. It's a two way street. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No I'm not. This can be observed when I say stuff like, 'that's a good point,' 'or 'that's reasonable.' I've read all the replies and the ones I don't respond to I usually respect (unless there insultin). If someone states something well, I don't need to respond 'cause we understand each others viewpoints. [This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infohawk Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: He is a troll without realising it. Just capable of posting, but neither capable of listening nor considering the other side of the story. At all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I totally understand the other parts of the argument. IN one sub-discussion, Madmatt and someone put me in my place about bouncers. I admitted it. I respect a lot of the arguments made, just not the ones that involve insulting me. You are being hypocritical. You're are criticizing me for not reading people's answers, but you have obviously not read mine. Again, insulting the person and not their argument does nothing. Why resort to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk: I respect a lot of the arguments made, just not the ones that involve insulting me. Again, insulting the person and not their argument does nothing. Why resort to it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Why, then, should Steve and Charles respect arguments which involve insulting or being rude to them? Because they're in business? I'm sorry, but that's just silly. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infohawk Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra: Why, then, should Steve and Charles respect arguments which involve insulting or being rude to them? Because they're in business? I'm sorry, but that's just silly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think it's a choice for people in business. You can ignore the criticizms and deal or get mad about it and talk about standing up for yourself. I've said that I respect BTS position not to take abuse. Personally, if I were in business, I would ignore it and try to accomodate the customer. Since i'm not, I feel I might as well try and condemn you for insulting me. Again, even if somebody's claim isn't legitimate (because they're rude), it doesn't justify being rude back to them. But yes, I do distinguish between behavior in business and behavior amongst non-business people. "I'm sorry, but that's just silly." was an unecessary statement. [This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).] [This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 08-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutral Party Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 It has come to my attention that BTS sucks. Had I known this before spending 45 of my hard-earned dollars on this product I would never have spent 45 of my hard-earned dollars on this product. Not only that, I have also spent an inordinate amount of my precious time playing this game. This time I now feel could have been better spent composing long, self-important and delusional (my speciality) diatribes on how I feel I should be treated having spent 45 of my hard-earned dollars. When I spend 45 of my hard-earned dollars on a product I demmand a level of respect and obseiquiesness comensurate with my status as a major investor. Why only the other day when purchasing a large bag of shopping from my local food emporium I had cause to advise a young man on the fact that his hair was absolutely filthy. Once I had instructed him in appropriate personal hygiene he was most appreciative and suggested some rather interesting, but unfortunately anatomically challenging, sexual techniques for one person that I could perform. This advice I would be more than happy to pass on to those individuals seeking only to ensure an appropriate level of servility from the lower orders, if only I could remember how it went. Keep up the good work. Tally ho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk: "I'm sorry, but that's just silly." was an unecessary statement.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not to me, it wasn't. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk: You are being hypocritical. You're are criticizing me for not reading people's answers, but you have obviously not read mine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I read all your answers and wonder how you can claim to have read anybody else's. Why don't you just prove that you can listen and think by responding to Philistine's question? And I made a point about why BTS would be ill-advised to accommodate rudeness very early on, that was later made by Steve too. Yet despite your claim that you don't post in agreement but read all responses, you advanced your fallacious argument that they have nothing to lose after my post. You are not listening, and you proved it. And as I said before, harsh as it may sound: grow up. The world does not revolve around you. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infohawk Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra: Not to me, it wasn't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Fair enough. You're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infohawk Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Neutral Party: This advice I would be more than happy to pass on to those individuals seeking only to ensure an appropriate level of servility from the lower orders, if only I could remember how it went. Tally ho.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If you aren't being sarcastic, are you suggesting computer programmers are of a lower order? It seems like you're being sarcastic. Why don't you just come out and say something if you want to say it instead of hiding it behind stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Alright, I honestly think that this thread really needs to be closed up. It is in the "back and forth" stage after all major points have been made, and in large part agreed upon. Let me close by saying there is a BIG difference between "criticism" and "insults". Criticism is welcomed by us and is in fact how CM got to be as good as it is now. Charles and I are pretty smart, but we aren't smarter than 100 people with various game and/or military experience But there is nothing to be learned/gained from insults. They only cause energy to be diverted from those things that really matter. And kissing up to such people only invites more rude behavior. That is something we had to learn the hard way, back when we tried to be nicer to total jerks Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts