John Kettler Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 This has happened to me in Quick Battles under 1.01 and 1.03. I'm going about my attacker business, advancing on the foe and all of a sudden, I see a minefield sign appear in an area in which I have no troops or vehicles now, nor had before. This happened again last night when my unbuttoned Panther (which had no LOS to it) noticed the telltale minefield warning sign in a road below a low crest to its right. While militarily useful to the attacker, I belief self-revealing minefields of this sort are totally counterproductive to the defender and need to be fixed ASAP. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 Hello John, Are you sure they wern't Daisy-chain mines? Check page 92 of the manual. ------------------ The dead know only one thing - it is better to be alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 I don't know if it's programmed, but in reality it wouldn't be impossible to spot a minefield without stepping on it - you could see the disturbed ground, or maybe a misplaced mine. Obviously this isn't true of every kind of terrain, but it's something to think about. Anyway, daisy chains aren't concealed at all, as Kingfish points out. They're an interesting example - a threat which is blatantly obvious, and will do you no harm unless you drive over it - it's just a pain to try and remove it. Such a trap, in the same way as barbed wire, is useless where the defender can't see it - but if the defender has a crossfire on it, the attacker is going to lose a lot of men trying to remove it. I wonder if the AI takes account of LOS when positioning barbed wire and daisychains? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 I saw almost exactly the same thing recently. Spotting (nearest?) unit was a Regular rifle 44 squad, at 95m in dawn/dusk conditions, and the sign reads Achtung Minen! Panzer! It is not a daisy chain, near as I can tell, just the sign in the open. Unless FOW means my guys mistook some kind of terrain feature for a minefield, this seems like a pretty eagle-eyed spot under the conditions. If anyone would like a screen shot I can send it. [This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 07-29-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 30, 2000 Author Share Posted July 30, 2000 Kingfish and David Aitken, If you'd read my post properly, you'd know I said I didn't have LOS to the minefield. Therefore, even if it were a daisy chain minefield, I still wouldn't have seen it. I'm talking about minefields which appear on their own, without being stepped on or driven over and are not in LOS. Mark IV knows exactly what I'm talking about. Sincerely, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 Aye, though I DID (in the interest of science) have an LOS to the location from several locations (all the rest were over 100m). Personally I would have trouble spotting an elk at that distance under those conditions, so the minefield was a bit of a stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisl Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV: Achtung Minen! Panzer! It is not a daisy chain, near as I can tell, just the sign in the open. [This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 07-29-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That would be a daisy chain minefield. You can't see the mines-- you just get a sign. If it was anti-personnel mines it would just say "Achtung Minen" without the "Panzer". The only way to spot a buried minefield (AP or AT) is to travel through it and set one off, unless Charles has quietly added a bit of new spotting code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 > If you'd read my post properly, you'd know I said I didn't have LOS to the minefield. I must read posts properly. I must read posts properly. I must read posts properly. I must read posts properly. I must read posts properly. Anyway, remember that LOS is nothing to do with proximity. It's not impossible that another of your units on the other side of the map had LOS - just a suggestion, obviously you know better than me. Being a game, things tend to happen in CM that may be statistically possible, but in reality are highly unlikely. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisl Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 I just did a test of minefield spotting. I set up a scenario with a blank (one level, clear terrain) map. Set up the Allies as defenders (my hypothesis was that maybe adding mines as fortifications for the allies was an afterthought, and all minefields were identified as german minefields deep in the code and that germans could always see them. Gave the allies about a company of guys (probably should have done less, makes no difference). Gave the allies one Daisy chain mine field, 2 AT mine fields and 2 AP mine fields. Gave the Germans a pioneer company (should be better at spotting mines). Played the scenario hotseat against myself. The minefields were easy to identify as to which is which by the locations in which I placed them. Started playing: Marched the germans line abreast toward and through the mine fields. Marched the allies off to one side (I should have put an LOS blocking berm between them) Eventually (and they had to be within 150 m or so) someone spotted the daisy chain mines. The buried AT mines were never spotted (I walked troops back and forth over them). The buried antipersonnel mines were spotted only when someone walked on them and set them off. Note that everyone on the map had LOS to everywhere at all times. My conclusion: John Kettler glimpsed a set of daisy chain mines through a break in some trees while someone was sneaking about. It might be a difficult LOS to pick out, since you can't pause the movie and use the LOS tool as soon as the mines are spotted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 30, 2000 Author Share Posted July 30, 2000 Very funny, David! Chris1, I appreciate your taking the time to set up and run the test. I still don't know the why of the results I got, though, since the Panther was my extreme right flank vehicle and no other AFVs or troops were even close until much later in the game. Nor can I tell you the exact nature of the sign marking the field, said sign being unreadable at 640 x 480, which is all my machine will support. If people can spot daisy chain mines from hundreds of yards out, then maybe we need a code tweak. These mines are roughly 6" x 12" x2", and even several of them linked on a rope (they're track breakers), viewed edge on wouldn't present much to see, if even visible in heat shimmer (scenario was August '44). Thanks for all the feedback. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisl Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 I'm stuck in 640x480, too. The easy way to tell antipersonnel from anti-tank signs (aside from stepping on them) is that the anti-personnel mine sign is one line ("Achtung Minen", and the anti-tank mine sign is two lines ("Achtung Minen <line feed> Panzer") and if they're daisy chain you see them before they blow something up, unless maybe you're flying around a corner in a fast vehicle. I discovered the one line vs two because I went through all the textures in the resource files. They're in super high res there. You can even see curtains in the house windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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