Teamski Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 Hey, Is this a photo of Wittmann's knocked out tank at Villers Bocage? I think I saw this picture in "Panzers in Normandy, Then and Now" with it being ID'ed as such. My friend brought it with him when we visited the town..... -Ski PS, Thanks! ------------------ "The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........" [This message has been edited by Teamski (edited 09-19-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manx Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 Looks in better condition than the one he died in, which if i remember correctly, had its turret blown off. ------------------ COMBAT MISSIONS- The Source For CM Ops & Scenarios WWW.COMBATMISSIONS.CO.UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 Yeah from Panzers in Normandy:Then and Now, that looks like it though the perspective is different in your photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 Nope, What you see on this pic is the tank No. 121 of Moebius 1st Coy. Wittmann was with Tiger 222 in Villers Bocage. For pics showing Wittmanns disabled 222 in front of the store Huet Godefroy in the Rue Pasteur, either look for Patrick Agte "Michael Wittmann und die Tiger der LSSAH" or Wolfgang Schneider "Tigers in Combat II". Cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted September 19, 2000 Author Share Posted September 19, 2000 Damn, I wish I had the book. I know Wittmann's tank was hit by a flank shot between some buildings, and finshed up resting against a building like this one. The bombing of Villers Bocage afterwards devastated the area. -Ski ------------------ "The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 Correct, Patrick Agte´s book shows 2 pics of Wittmans tank...one which has been taken on 13th June 44 and one after the bombing. Not much left of the Rue Pasteur after the bombing and the Tiger is badly mauled. BTW: The pic of the 121 above has been taken before the bombing and Wolfgang Schneider has a pic showing the same tank after the bombing with lots of rubble on top of it. The relevant pages are: Patrick Agte: p. 241 Wolfgang Schneider: p. 281 for Wittmanns tank and p. 282 for the 121 before and after the bombing. Cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted September 19, 2000 Author Share Posted September 19, 2000 Hey, Thanks for the info! -Ski ------------------ "The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Man Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 Whats the true story behind Witmanns demise.I heard it was British Fireflys and I also heard it was an RAF typhoon.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyShot Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 DesertFox, Actually Gary Simpson in "Tiger Ace" identifies THAT tank as the one Wittmann abandoned (I'm sure because of the blown-off commanders hatch)- though if his credibility is as shoddy as his writing he is dead wrong. He also shows a pic of another abandonded tiger just up the street from this one, resting beside a knocked out MK IV. Would that have been Wittman's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider Rider Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 "Actually Gary Simpson in "Tiger Ace" identifies THAT tank as the one Wittmann abandoned (I'm sure because of the blown-off commanders hatch)- though if his credibility is as shoddy as his writing he is dead wrong." Unfortunately, I bought that book the moment I saw it. Can't comment on his credibility, but Koko the gorilla could communicate better than that poor fellow. [This message has been edited by Glider Rider (edited 09-19-2000).] [This message has been edited by Glider Rider (edited 09-19-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 We discussed this here in considerable depth last year. Here are some quotes from the thread: [http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/000993.html] <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>[DesertFox] Before you start up a debate who killed him and who not. I´d like to carefully advise you to only rely on what IS written AND made save by either eyewittness accounts or documents. In this case we have 2 eyewittnesses (the doctor of sPzAbt(SS)101 and the Tiger commander who was next to Wittmanns left, who both state concurringly that Wittmann´s tank (007 since Wittmann was CO of the Abteilung) was hit by cannonfire, the tank started to smoke and the turret was where it should be. Some minutes later the fire lead to an explosion of the tank, blowing the turret off (some 5-10m behind the tank). Furthermore this wasn´t the only tank which brewed up that day. All Tigers which attacked on the right on the GRAMESNIL side of the road where knocked out. It is extremely sure that all these tanks got hits in their right flank from the Gramesnil area. All this and a little more you can read in Patrick Agte´s book about the sPzAbt(SS)101. This is what the facts say. All else is speculation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> [http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/000993.html] <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>[MikeD] I concur w/ Desert Fox here. I don't have time to go in to all the details until I get home tonight and recheck the book, so I'm going from memory here (what I reread last night that is). However, it is clear from Agte's book that there was no air attack! It is in no way shape or form mentioned by any of the German eyewitnesses. And trust me, all throughout the book they make mention of darn near each any every air attack they encountered. Nor is mention made of any air attacks in the unit history of the English unit that was situated on their right flank in the tree line where the infamous Firefly was hiding. Next, Wittmann was definitely in Tiger 007! Several German eye witnesses attest to this fact. Including one of the other Tiger commanders in the battle which climbed into his tank at the same time Wittmann did, just before proceeding with the advance. He clearly states that Wittmann went into battle in a command tank and that that tank was 007. Since Wittmann was the company commander of the 2nd company his regular tank would have been 201. This is not entirely uncommon though. In fact I believe Wittman wasn't even in his own tank at Villers Bocage. I don't remember why at the moment though(I'll have to go checke the book again tonight.) Regardless, the reason he wasn't in his normal tank on that particular day is that he had assumed command of the battalion several weeks before after H. VonWesterhagen had had to step down due to aggravations with an old head wound. In fact he hadn't even been in the thick of the fighting for the most part since is return from leave after receiving the Knight's Cross w/ Oak Leaves from the Fuhrer after his magnificant achievement at Villers Bocage. He in fact probably wouldn't have gone into battle this day either, save for the fact that that the company commander (Heurich) that would otherwise have lead them had never even seen action before. One eye witness has quoted Wittmann stating before the battle something to the effect (I'm going from memory here), "I must go, Heurich can't handle this himself". Finally, the pictures. I don't know what pictures anyone else has seen, but Agte has two in the book that were taken by a French civilian after the battle. Supposedly these are the only two pictures in existence of any of the Tigers knocked out during the battle. One of which is a pretty darn good shot of tank 007 showing the turret blown off. First off, there isn't a single scratch on the rear of the turret. No burn/blast marks, no holes, nothing. And surprisingly, not on the right side of it either which is clearly visible in the picture since the turret is sitting on the ground upside down. This latter fact doesn't mean much, other than it is interesting since the German tanks came under fire from their right flank. It does show that this isn't where the penetrating hit occurred if nothing else. However, the fact that there are no indications on the rear of the turret of any AT or rocket hit whatsoever (not even a nearby hit which one would certainly think would leave some type of blast mark on the rear of the turret!) would also seem to indicate that there was no hit on the rear deck of the tank either. The photo also shows the rear of the tank, but unfortunately is taken from ground level so you can't see the rear deck. From what you can see though, there is absolutely no indication whatsoever of any type of rocket hit. No burn/blast marks, etc. Nothing. My "guess" is that Wittman's tank was one of the three knocked out by the English Firefly on the Germans right flank. The English unit history clearly states that this tank took out at least 3 of the 4 Tigers on the east side of the road that were knocked out, or immobilized. The fourth was probably hit by other Shermans as it was reported to have lost a track and become immobile. The other 3 were clear kills. Most likely the Firefly round penetrated the right hull and got into the ammo store somewhere on that side. The tank then brewed up and the ammo went off blowing off the turret. I'm not saying this is the end all conclusive story of what happened. However, it is told by eyewitnesses and references official reports and unit histories. So I think that it does hold a fairly high degree of credibility.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> One final remark to the rocket story: It has first been published in Will Fey´s book "Panzerkampf" which has been translated to english and is now published by Fedorowicz. However one thing you have to keep in mind is that a) Will Fey was a former Tiger ace of schwere Panzerabteilung SS 102 "Das Reich" and all he writes has to be understood as an attempt to enhance the praize of the SS Tankcorps; 2) The report by Mr. Varin is dated 1946 and here is of course the possibility that the 007 wreck got a rocket hit after the battle on 8th August 1944, but this 1 single account by Mr.Varin is contradicted by several eyewittness accounts which have been recorded imediately after 8th August 1944 and concuringly state that all Tigers which have been knocked out that day in the St.Aignan area got hits from their right flank out of the St.Aignan area where 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry was operating. For reference I highly recommend reading Ken Tout "Tanks" and "A fine Night for Tanks", Patrick Agte "Michael Wittmann und die Tigerkommandanten der LSSAH" and Hubert Mayer "12th SS Panzerdivision Hitlerjugend" Cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>DesertFox, Actually Gary Simpson in "Tiger Ace" identifies THAT tank as the one Wittmann abandoned (I'm sure because of the blown-off commanders hatch)- though if his credibility is as shoddy as his writing he is dead wrong. He also shows a pic of another abandonded tiger just up the street from this one, resting beside a knocked out MK IV. Would that have been Wittman's?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LuckyShot, To the Credibility of Gary Simpsons book I only can say that his so called research is nothing more than a fairy tale. Everyone who knows a bit about schwere SS Panzerabteilung 101 will see this very clearly after reading Simpsons book. To the Tiger besides the knocked out PanzerLehr PzIV, this isn´t Wittmanns tank either, sorry <G>. It is turett No.112 from Moebius 1st Coy. One thing you should know is that 1st Coy Tigers can clearly be identified by the schwere Panzerabteilung rectangle on the right of the frontplate and the 1st SS Corps marking on the left of the frontplate. 2nd Coy Tigers had the 1st SS Corps insignia on the right of the frontplate and no schwere Panzerabteilung marking at all. Furthermore all Tigers of 1st Coy which have been knocked out in Villers Bocage face to the center of the town, while Wittmann´s 222 face outside the town to the Caen direction. Cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted September 20, 2000 Author Share Posted September 20, 2000 This is a photo of the main street of Villers Bocage taken July of this year. This shot is identical to a shot of Wittmann's tank in "Panzers in Normandy, Then and Now". Joeprivate should be able to back me on this. Wittmanns tank was resting, facing the camera on the building on the immediate right. Note, though, that most of these buildings were built or rebuilt after the war, especially the ones on the right. It does give you an idea what it looked like, though. Wittmann's tank appeared on the this street about two blocks down, straight ahead. He knocked out two tanks parked on the right of this road, while the third one backed into a yard. He then clanked down past this position, behind the camera and shot it out with a firefly and a couple of Comets. He turned around, went back the other way down this road and shot it out with the third Comet that had come out on this road. After knocking it out, he continued along a parallel route to meet up with tanks and vehicles on this road just outside the town..... I have some other shots of EXACT places of where tanks were knocked out as in the Panzer book, if anyone is interested. I don't have the book, but I was looking at a buddy's copy while taking these shots. ALso note that the road rises ahead and bends to the left and is not flat like the scenario...... -Ski ------------------ "The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........" [This message has been edited by Teamski (edited 09-20-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyShot Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 Okay, just to clear up some general confusion on my part - we are talking about the Villers-Bocage battle where Wittman, commanding two different Tigers over the course of the day, knocked out tons of allied equipment before finally being immobilized and forced to abandon his tank? He was not killed until some days later IIRC. Now, based on Simpson's work (which I know may not be worth a damn) and the Combat Mission briefing based on the same battle, it appears that Wittman during the later encounters of the day, was commanding a Tiger belonging to a guy named Mobius and that he was immobilized against a building after taking a 6-pdr. shell in the left track - so, could the original picture posted by Teamski be THAT tank? - not actually Wittman's 222, but one which he was driving? That's all I'm curious about - not trying to start an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 I don´t want to step on someones toes but Wittmann was exactly and only ONE time in Villers-Bocage on 13th June when he thrashed the Brits. He used ONLY the 222. When his tank was immobed he made it on foot to the PanzerLehr DivHQ some 15 km away. When he returned from the DivHQ he briefed Möbius on the situation. The second combined PanzerLehr/sSS101 attack was lead by Philipsen, one of Moebius platoon leaders. This second attack was an utter failure and the 1st Coy lost all Tigers which were used in Villers-Bocage plus some additional PzIV from PanzerLehr. But as you might see it indeed depends on which sources the scenario designer is basing his work. cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 [This message has been edited by The DesertFox (edited 09-20-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyShot Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 Thanks DesertFox, I don't doubt you as you seem very well-read on the subject and it's probably been discussed to death here, but why do you think there are such conflicting reports? Anyways, if you've got any book reccomendations on the subject (preferably something easily available in the US or Canada) I'd love to hear them - are those two you mentioned earlier easy to get a hold of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 Basically I´d recomend 3 books on the Villers Bocage battle: 1st) Patrick Agte´s book, IMHO the best researched book available about 101st SS Panzerabteilung, AFAIK translated to english and published by Fedorowicz [http://www.jjfpub.mb.ca/products.htm] 2nd) "Villers-Bocage through the lens", Daniel Taylor. It´s a pretty good description of the events from the british side with lots of pics taken directly after the battle. 3rd) Wolfgang Schneiders "Tiger in Combat II" also published by Fedorowicz. To the conflicting reports: I honestly don´t know, but it might have to do with some folks intending to glorify the action of the Waffen SS starting in the late 50s. There are many unsubstantiated heroic fairy tales about these warriors out there and many don´t hold any standards but are repeated on and on until people start to trust the fairy tale more than the truth. I have some stuff about the battle at home, if I can dig it out I will post it here. Cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 [This message has been edited by The DesertFox (edited 09-20-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crank_GS Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 Wow, great thread, guys. Lots of good info. The Daniel Taylor is, indeed, a good book, with a lot of photos. In that book, the author poses the possibility that 231 (photographed being towed by another Tiger) may be Wittmann's tank. He also makes a good case for the Wittmann tank being knocked east of Villers Bocage, near the fork in the road and by a Brit 6 pounder. Just wondering what you all think... Thanks ------------------ Capt. Byron Crank, US Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 Ah well finally found it. This has been written by Claus B a while back and I don´t have anything to add. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Wittmann moved onto RN175 from the south some way up the slope of Hill 213, knocking out at least one Firefly and two Cromwells. He then turned left towards Villers-Bocage knocking out the half-tracks and carriers outside the village. Just behind that column were three Stuarts that either Wittmann or another Tiger knocked out. The 4 RHQ Cromwells were reversing into the upper part of Villers-Bocage, persued by Wittmann. One was knocked out just inside the village, another one backed into a garden and was caught there. A third managed to hide in a farm yard while the fourth was knocked out just before the bend in the main road. Along with it went the Sherman AOP. A bit further down, a Cromwell AOP escaped down a side road but got stuck there trying to turn in the street. Spotted by Wittmanns Tiger, it was also knocked out. Wittmann then proceded down the main road until he bumped into the Firefly of Sgt. Lockwood and a firefight followed in which a 17pdr round grazed Wittmanns Tiger, causing him to reverse back up the street. Capt. Pat Dyas surviving RHQ Cromwell came down through the main road in the hope of stalking Wittmann, but ran into the Tiger head on and the British tank was knocked out. At this point it is unclear what happened. Either Wittmanns tank broke down in the main street after having been hit multiple times (the most likely scenario since there is pictoral evidence of a 2. company Tiger abandoned on the main road in the center of the village) or it proceeded out of town only to be stalked by one of the Rifle Brigades surviving 6pdrs (Taylors suggestion, but less likely in my view). That was the end of Wittmanns expoits at Villers-Bocage. It is worth noting that the "research" conducted of US writer Gary Simpson on which Lefevres account in "Panzers in Normandy" and his own (extremely badly done) book on Wittmann is faulty to the extent of being a fairy tale. It is even in direct conflict with Wittmann own account of the battle and the citation for the his Swords to the Knights Cross. Simpsons account is not the only one that is flawed, many British post-war narratives claim a lot of silly things like RN175 being "a sunken road" on which it was impossible to turn. That is horse. RN175 was a fairly wide road, with wide, grassy shoulders and a hedge on each side that could easily be run down by tanks. This is confirmed both by the German photographs taken the day after the battle and RAF airial photos taken the day before the battle and reproduced in Taylors book. It is interesting, however, that many of the histories of the units involved are corresponding well with German accounts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyShot Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 Thanks again DesertFox, Seems everything is rather muddled when it comes to exact details but that is to be expected I guess. The only things I'm sure about are that Wittmann was involved in the fighting in Villers Bocage and that I could write a better book than Gary Simpson. I will keep an eye out for those titles you mentioned. Also, I saw where Wittmann's account of the battle was/is documented - any idea where to find that? MW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 Wittmann´s own account of the battle and a Xerox-copy of the citation for his Swords to the Knights Cross can be found in Agte´s book besides tons of photos and lot´s of maps and original sketches etc. As I mentioned, it´s THE book <G> Cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted September 20, 2000 Author Share Posted September 20, 2000 Here are 2 more photos of the area (I promise these will bethe last!). Here is a shot further up the hill from the last picture. Right where the Chevy Blazier is, one of the Cromwells was knocked out. Refer to "Panzers in Normandy, Then and Now" to find the identical WWII shot. The houses were the same, so this is pretty much how it looked during the battle. Wittmann's tank trundled past this point down the hill to have it out with the Firefly.... This second shot is where one of the Tigers that came back with Wittmann was knocked out. This spot is a block over to the right and parallel to the first picture. The Tiger turned on to this street and was right in the middle of this intersection facing the camera when it got nailed by either a Firefly or a 6pdr that was lying in ambush facing the main street behind the camera. Again, refer to the Panzers book for the idential WWII shot. The houses are the same ones from the WWII picture! Ok, I won't post anymore shots! I hope these give you an idea of the actual town of Villers Bocage, though...... -Ski ------------------ "The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oberly Posted September 20, 2000 Share Posted September 20, 2000 Don't worry about posting the photos,Teamski,they are really interesting. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I've gotta ask:from where does this quote originate? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted September 21, 2000 Share Posted September 21, 2000 Great pics Ski, Keep them coming! Cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted September 21, 2000 Author Share Posted September 21, 2000 Happy you guys like them! The Ravenoville quote is from Donald Burgett's book "Currahee", a personal account of a paratrooper in Normandy. Ravenoville was a small town that elements of the 506th attacked the morning of June 6th, part of D-Day. I visited there and walked 12 miles retracing his route, from a map in the book, to Carentan on sort of a pilgrimage. I first read it when I was 8, and always wanted to walk it. Well, being in the USAF, I was lucky to get stationed here in the UK! The book is excellent in it's descriptions of combat and I took a camera with me to document it. Great stuff that was. I just happen to be with a British friend who knew the area really well and we went to Villers Bocage as well. I never knew anything about Wittmann until we went there and read about it...... -Ski ------------------ "The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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