John Kettler Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Greetings! While at the AFV News Discussion Board I found a long thread on the T-8 and related vehicles.From what I can tell, the Americans made two. The Brits and Canadians seemed to have something similar, but most of them were reworked M-3 types. Particularly recommend this thread to Fionn. www.mo-money.com/AFV-news/cgi_bin/webbbs/config.pl?read=4971 The other treasure is something I found in the new online issue of AFV INTERIORS www.kithobbyist.com/AFVInteriors In it you'll find some fabulous pictures of the JgdPz IV/L70(V), several in stunning color, with lots of detail on sighting arrangements, periscopes, etc. The vehicle shown now apparently belongs to the Patton Museum, at Fort Knox, Kentucky. Speaking of which, are the Germans credited with use of scissor optics like this vehicle, the StuG, etc. had? They could be used without exposing the TCs head, either through a special small hatch or with the special and main hatches open,but the TC's head down. I'd also like to offer my thoughts on the soon-to-be implemented bow MG. Having looked at the mount for the bow MG in the pictures, I wouldn't be too worried unless under massed MG fires or similar. The MG fills the lower hole, and the upper is an aperture for sighting. I think the likelihood of hitting such a small opening is about the same as scoring a direct hit on the optics of the gunner's telescope, and I think it would be a serious mistake to limit the weapon to medium and long engagement brackets only. ROF on the main gun isn't all that high, and I can't imagine any sane commander giving up his only other defense against infantry, especially close-in, simply because a bullet, fragment, etc,. MIGHT get in. Ferdinand crews at Kursk were so concerned they fired MGs down the 88s'barrels with the breech open and no round loaded, an unsatisfactory method which led to the later installation of a proper bow MG mount on the survivors. Generally speaking, I'd let the player decide, but I have no idea how to code such a thing. The entire installation smacks of ruthless late war production streamlining in an effort to get powerful, if imperfectly implemented, armor out the door, rather than go through the extra steps to put in a complicated, expensive, armored ball mount. Let me know what you all think. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 23, 2000 Author Share Posted August 23, 2000 I'm astonished that no one has posted any kind of response. The pictures of the Jagdpanzer IV/L70(V) are worth several all by themselves. Maybe the title was too restrictive? Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 Thank you. Very informative and enlightening. A good read/look. Can you say claustrophobic.... Being inside as shells near-miss and bounce off your machine while richocheting bullets ping off the hull, and not being able to see except out the vision slits. Must have been rather freightening for the crew. I've seen interviews with WW 2 German tankers and he said "he'd much rather be outside where you could find a ditch to take cover in. In a tank you're just sitting there as the biggest target and you're relying soley on the armour to save you." <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Speaking of which, are the Germans credited with use of scissor optics like this vehicle, the StuG, etc. had?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I would believe that the Germans developed these. The Russians just would have sent unarmed men to walk ahead as "scouts". German optics were considered the best in the world. -johnS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgdpzr Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 I sure wish the Patton Museum would display this Jgdpz IV. Their floor space is somewhat limited, but they have a treasure-trove of vehicles in the back lots that never see the light of day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 31, 2000 Author Share Posted August 31, 2000 Bumping this in hopes of getting some feedback from BTS or other knowledgeable parties on production quantities, battlefield employment, etc. for T-8, especially in light of AFV NEWS thread link I posted. Thanks! John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Smith Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 John Thanks Mate for this...I just spent a good deal of time reading the articles. Man oh man I wish we had stuff like this to climb over down under - I feel AFV deprived - oh how I want to see a Panther/Tiger up close and personal Thanks again for posting the URL. BTS - go the MG42 mount for the IV/70 Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest machineman Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Well that was an interesting look at the Jagdpanzer IV and the Panther! Ah, you have to like iron. Oh, and can't get over how long a round goes in the 75L70. Is there a site anywhere with photos comparing the sizes of the various German vs Allied tank rounds? No wonder the L70 had such high velocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 31, 2000 Author Share Posted August 31, 2000 Aussie Smith, you're welcome. Machineman, I don't know of a site, but if you can find a 1973 Beekman House book called TANKS & WEAPONS OF WORLD WAR II, page 23 has a beautiful color shot showing a range of complete rounds, from Italian 20mm AP, through the stock 88, the U.S. 90mm AA, the British 3.7" AA and many others. No 122mm or 128mm, though. Pages 50 and 51 feature a side by side comparison of WW II British and German tank ammunition, including the German 128mm. These pictures should serve to give you a good idea of relative ammo size and power. Hope this helps. John Kettler [This message has been edited by John Kettler (edited 08-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claus B Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aussie Smith: Man oh man I wish we had stuff like this to climb over down under - I feel AFV deprived - oh how I want to see a Panther/Tiger up close and personal<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There are a bit more on the Jagdpanzer IV and variants at http://www.mobilixnet.dk/~mob75281/profiles.htm. Last year, I had the opportunity to look around inside a Jagdpanzer IV and it is actually quite spacious compared with, for example, a Panzer III or IV, even compared with the StuG III. Because you are inside one big box, rather than sitting in some small enclosure like a turret or drivers compartment, you have a lot more air around you, making it a somewhat less claustrophobic experience. Claus B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted September 30, 2000 Share Posted September 30, 2000 I'm just finding this now. Thanks John! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 30, 2000 Author Share Posted September 30, 2000 Pillar, You're welcome. Sadly, I have yet to get any feedback from BTS or anyone else on my original T-8 question. Would someone who knows please give me some production numbers, intro dates, etc., for this AFV about which I know so little? Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compassion Posted September 30, 2000 Share Posted September 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by machineman: Oh, and can't get over how long a round goes in the 75L70. Is there a site anywhere with photos comparing the sizes of the various German vs Allied tank rounds? No wonder the L70 had such high velocity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Don't know of a site, but if you ever find yourself in New Orleans I would urge you to drop by the D-Day Museum. The literature on the place says to devote a couple hours to it, but I stayed in there about 3 hours one day and then came back the next for another 2 or 3 or so. THere is an exibit of uniforms and weapons that were around that part of France on D-Day and it includes some rounds from big guns (the big mortar rounds are... well... damn big!). Excellent collection Great museum... and even though Ambrose was the hand behind it, the accuracy is still pretty stunning. Lots of the volunteers of the museum are vets. There was a facinating discussion in front of me by two vets about the qualities of the boats they served on (there's a Higgins Boat LCVP there...). One of the volunteers was talking about his boat and this other old timer comes up and they start debating that and the LCT. Fascinating stuff and lots of little tidbits (they both agreed that the front doors of both craft sucked as they acted like sails when you didn't want them to am pushed the boats around...). Brillinatly executed... Already making plans to go back next year when the Pacific War exhibit opens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted October 10, 2000 Author Share Posted October 10, 2000 I wanted to let all of you know that the Beltring Jagdpanzer IV, correctly described as now being at the Patton Museum, is not on display because some engine gauges are being made and need to be installed in order to allow proper monitoring of engine function. Apparently, the carburetor on this old vehicle is finicky and will flood given any opportunity to do so. When this happens, the vehicle is effectively dead for about two hours. The Museum got the vehicle from the Army, which got it from a private collector in exchange for a helicopter of some sort. I got this information today from Mr. Lemons, Curator of the Patton Museum, in a conversation to inform him about the King Tiger parts on eBay (subject of a separate post by me). He said the Museum's King Tiger (used to be Aberdeen's) could be made a runner, but it would take a while. Though he didn't need the whole lot, he was interested in knowing who finally won the auction, in case of future need for a few of the parts. Regards, John Kettler [This message has been edited by John Kettler (edited 10-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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