PARTISANS !!!

[Xavier]

Are partisans (french resistance by instance) modelled in cm ? In 1944, they fight many time with allied troops or alone against occupation forces.

[Guest phoenix]

In the Ardennes?

[Doug Beman]

Sorry, no partisans. They did contribute greatly to the war effort, but they did so by interfering with rear-area operations mostly. Since CM recreates front-line combat, and partisans weren't part of front-line action more than rarely, CM will not have partisan units.

DjB

[Mark IV]

I don't think the French Resistance meets the traditional definition of partisans, at least as used by the Wehrmacht. In the East they were faced with large, reasonably organized bodies of partisans, who may have used ambush and hit-and-run tactics, but functioned as military units. They were highly irregular and were composed of non-professionals who faded back into the populace between actions, but could be formidable units in local encounters.

The Resistance didn't usually engage in these kind of actions, and weren't a battlefield factor that I'm aware of.

[Xavier]

Yes right, Usually the resistance is very different the eastern definition of partisans and the scale of action is different too.

But some resistance units engage the german sometimes with thousands men as in the Vercors or in Britany in august44 or even during the liberation of Paris.It's may be a drop of water in the sea of all allied military actions but according too me it could have been in CM scope...

[Guest Big Time Software]

Well, there are a few "large scale" battles that happened between German and French partisans (one good word to cover all the various factions ). But far too few to warrent simulation.

Something like the "Liberation of Paris" are not good ones. This was not really a battle, but a large series of hit and run skirmishes against retreating German military and administrative formations. There was really no "battle".

The principle advantage of the partisans was surprise and avoiding strong enemy concentrations of force. So by their very nature they are not designed to fight CM type battles. They did upon occasion, sure, but only when they were sure they could win. I'm not saying that the French partisans were cowards, but they did understand their own limitations. Taking out a 50 man (old man very often!) garison in an iscolated village is not the same thing as attacking a frontline military formation.

This is demonstrated very well with the march of 2nd SS Panzer Division 'Das Reich' SS from the south to Normandy. The French partisans, who numbered many thousand in the area, had siezed many villages along their march route in the days before their advance. However, the partisans simply abandoned these towns they had siezed instead of outright confrontation. There were plenty of hit and run attacks, but nothing that would be worthy of simulation. This was the norm.

Steve

[Xavier]

Yes steve, You're right .I agree with you.

[Greg Deych]

Speaking of eastern front partisans. I've recently learned that most of them were created from NKVD troops as the regular army retreated out of the area. Oftentimes, they grew by accumulating soldiers and civilians who joined afterwards, which caused some organizational problems, since the later arrivals were usually not as disciplined and organized as original contingent.

[Guest Big Time Software]

There is only one rule of thumb for partisans in the East... there are no rules The most effective partisan formations were under the direct control of Moscow, and these were generally staffed by NKVD and regular Red Army officers. But not always. In fact, the Soviets had a hard time of it at first as most of their "agents" that were sent to "aid" various partisan groups were shot dead right after they opened their big mouths and announced that everybody now had to do what they said, instead of the indiginous leadership. Remember, not everybody was keen to be under the thumb of Stalin

After several large disasters the Soviets learned from their earlier, bungled attempts to gain control and changed their tone and methods. Instead of trying to sieze control they more or less acted as advisors and liason agents. This worked out well for the groups that were predisposed to fight for the Soviet regime, but still had problems with the ones that weren't. In fact, many of these formations fought just as hard against the Red Army after the front lines shifted. They even assisinated a Marshall (oooooh, Rokosovski? I forget now!). The last of the partisan formations were wiped out by 1947 IIRC.

Steve

[AndyRoss]

I think that it was (General?) Vatutin that was assassinated by partisans. Now that's really going to irritate me: which partisans did it? UNRA? Anyway, I think that he died a few months after being shot up by them.

[Guest JonS]

OK, so they don't have a place in CM1, but BTS, are partisans being considered for CMs 2 & 3?

Regards

Jon

------------------

Ubique

[Guest Big Time Software]

Bingo Andy

You got my already riled curiosity even more so. A quick check through two books found what I needed:

"March 1944 General N. F. Vatugin, the commander of the First Ukranian Front, drove through snow covered fields to visit one of his subordinate armies. Without warning the partisans opened fire on the General's car which was in the lead. His car and one of the escort vehicles was set on fire and a fight began between the partisans and teh escourt. During this exchange of shots the General was wounded in the hip, and he was carried away for medical attention. Despite the care of the best available surgeons he died on 15 April at the age of 42"

This was from Paul Adair's "Hitler's Greatest Defeat". I think I found out why Rokossovsky stuck in my mind. The next paragraph tells of how he used to travel in an armored train or by aircraft.

The forces that shot up Vatutin were Ukrainian Liberation Movement.

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

I am sure we will have some sort of partisan force to use for CM2. Not quite sure how we will do it as their arament and organization was so helter skelter. But I'm sure we can come up with something

Steve

[tss]

The last of the partisan formations were wiped out by 1947 IIRC.

Some Ukrainian groups survived into mid 50's.

- Tommi

[AndyRoss]

Thanks, Steve. I was ready to fish out my books to find out. I'm sure that I've read a better account of Vatutin's ill fated drive: I'd put money on it being in Road To Berlin. It turned out to be a pretty eventful firefight and Vatutin was only injured while they were egressing I think.

Does this qualify as an assassination? It took him a while to pop his clogs. Is there a time limit?

[Guest Big Time Software]

TSS, I thought I remembered a couple holding out that long. I think 1947 was when the last of the "organized" formations were knocked out, but some small bands continued for much longer. My understanding is that they transformed into more of a Bandit type thing where they were crime instead of politics became the main reason for existing. i.e. why earn a living when you could steal one So little has been written about this since the Soviets, of course, said it didn't happen.

Andy, my understanding was that the ambush was deliberate and done with the knowledge that there was a senior officer in the column. I don't think they necessarily knew exactly who it was, but it is very possible that they did.

BTW, when partisan groups were "liberated" they were generally given a "choice" in regards to joining the Red Army. Guess what happened if the guy said no? Then these formations were put into the WORST positions possible to ensure maximum casualties. The Soviets were always fearful that partisans had too much independence, skill, and the will to use it. Better to kill them off then have them knocking about in their opinion.

Steve

[killmore]

The marshall killed was Polish. His name was Swierczewski. Killed in 1947 by partizans.

His attitude was as bad as Pattons.

The partizans in SE region of Poland (Mountans called Bieszczady) were wiped out in 1947. Fighting was very heavy and population descreased by 90%.

The partizans were part ukrainian part prewar Polish AK army.

I have been in that area in 1985. Very deep in the forest/mountains I have seen a partizan bunker that was rumored to contain gold in it. The problem was that there were a lot of wires running bettwen the entrance walls of the bunker (mine really). It was wired to explode...

[Major Tom]

Well, in CM2 one definitely has to model the Polish Home army. Equipped with all sorts of small arms it was probably the most militaristic, yet, unsuccessful 'partisan' unit in the war. They should have waited until the Russians had already entered the city to start their uprising.

[killmore]

I agree. It was the case of impatience on their part. They wanted Russians to enter a free city under capitalist goverment control. That was not possible since they could not defeat germans in the city of Warsaw.

[Mark IV]

It may also be true that the Russians were equally determined to enter a city full of dead Poles, especially the most independent and militaristic of them. The Red Army kind of parked and watched the fun, and let the Nazis do more dirty work for them. Of course the party line would be that they were regrouping for the final assault on the Reich, but they did sort of go into a 4 month hibernation there.

[AndyRoss]

Do you guys think that BTS should model the partisan uprising in Warsaw in CM2? I mean the German units were tasked with brutally subduing the population so surely we can't have the player tasked with these bestial acts.

...but on the other hand I would love to see BTS model the Goliath! Does anyone know if this was used elsewhere in the war: the only place I've heard of it being used is in Warsaw (for those of you in the 'not know', the Goliath was a huge, wire-controlled tank packed to the brim with explosives... )

I can't blame the home army for uprising at that time: no one really expected the Russians to be halted in their tracks by any German response. The AK really wanted to make the push while it was useful to do so: there's no point letting the Russians take the city and then approaching them and asking for some power: they wanted to control significant sections before the Russians took control. I'd blame it on lack of coordination with the Red Army (which wasn't possible until the Polish gov. in exile struck a deal with Stalin over the future of Poland).

[crossfire]

I don't see a point to Warsaw uprising mission. What are you suppose to defend Warsaw with? They had nothing really usefull against tanks. Since germans could just blowup building after building, there was no simple way to get close to the tanks to use molotovs...

[Guest Big Time Software]

Killmore, we were specifically talking about Vatutin. I had NO idea they assasinated a Marshal *after* the war. Not surprised mind you, just didn't know.

I don't really see the point in modeling the Warsaw Uprising, but I also don't see why it would be prevented. We most likely won't be making a special force for the Polish Homeguard. As brave as those men, women, and children were, it was a very isolated and brief event that was not very militarily significant in terms of tactics or strategy. It was a fairly "quick", deliberate process of death and destruction, block by block.

The debate about the Red Army's inaction is about as hotly discussed as the reasons for the Dunkirk disaster (from the German perspective, of course!).

BTW, many of the members of partisans that survived to fight the Soviets after the war came from the anhilated 14th SS Division "Ukranische Nr. 1". From German estimates, full 1/3 of the division (roughly 3-4,000 men) were not accounted for as either KIA, WIA, or still active after its first active use in frontline combat.

Goliaths, and other remote controlled demos, were used in several areas. In fact, there were huge numbers of them deployed along the Atlantic wall. From what we can tell they were totally ineffective and were captured in large numbers intact. The Goliath was actually one of the smaller remote controlled demo vehicles.

Steve

[killmore]

The only reason I know about communist General Swierczewski killed in 1947 is because in elementary school we had to read a book about him and discuss it.