A Arabian Posted February 22, 2000 Share Posted February 22, 2000 The subject is a poor description of what I am talking about, but here goes anyway. I know its too late to add it into CM1, but for future reference, what is the feeling on having floating labels, much akin to the current ctl-L warning labels, come up over your units, that just give the unit type info . Conditions in which I see this being handy is primarily when you have large numbers of units huddled together in a building to assist you in determining what you've got where - and to help you find taht elsuive panzershreck team in the CE scenario that got huddled up in with a bunch of SMG squads. I recall back in the depths of my memory there was a lengthy discussion about giving full OOB info and how that would violate some of the FOW and 'gut command' goals. Maybe this would have the same problems. Dunno. This was mentioned kinda in the GD review, but I'm trying to get a feel for if BTS is opposed to this, and if so, why. Its not a huge deal, but I've spent enough time hunting and pecking for units to make it seem useful. Adam Arabian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted February 22, 2000 Share Posted February 22, 2000 Do you have any idea the level of clutter that this would add to the display? Look at the exsiting warning lables at the end of the battles and remember that the demo scenarioes are on the SMALL side. Where would all these lables be shown at, in like you said, a crowded building? What about units that were in the background and directly behind the units in the foreground? Would they also have these little lables above their heads and what would that look like with text overlapping text? What about those that play the game in 2D top down mode only? There are many more people that play this way then you would think. Sure making it toggleable could be a partial solution but that still doesnt even begin to scratch the surface of addressing the clutter factor. In a Battalion sized battle you would be in command of maybe 9 or so seperate platoons with an average of 4 commandable units per platoon. That is 40 plus units that would need these handy labels floating above their heads! Nice idea but the ergonomics of this just doesn't make sense. The thing to remember is that the info that you trying to have at hand is already available in the game. The more you play you will become much more profecient at instantly accessing the current situation and addressing it. I used to think that some sort of Order of Battle will also be helpfull, that was until I became a tester (and started playing daily!) and saw how unnecesary that really would be. I often command Battalions in Combat Mission and have never felt taxed or overworked in order to control my units. You will through sheer repeated play become a much better COMMANDER, and will know WHERE to look, WHEN to act, WHAT to do, and also be able to FEEL the ebb and flow of the battle. Combat Mission provides tactile feedback in a way that no wargame has yet done. BTS says repeatedly that you need to unlearn in order to fully appreciate and succeed in Combat Mission. This is true in ALL regards, not just in tactics but in your own style of interfacing with the game. Think of this, did you find the escape key functionality cumbersome at first? Sure, so did I, but now I find myself cursing every application that won't use the ESC key the same way! How about this, you ever try and rotate the camera arounbd a screenshot? I can't beleive that some people complain that they 'lose' a mortar team or squad in the demo! I mean you only got a company to watch over!!! How can somebody not KNOW what happened to unit B-2?!? You gave them their orders, your the commander aren't you? Unlearn... HINT: Although they're sorta bland, UNIT BASES ARE YOUR FRIENDS....Don't leave the setup area without them... UNLEARN.... Madmatt... p.s. Hmmm deprogrammer for Combat Mission! Mmmmmm I wonder what kind of benefits package they have?!? ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! combathq.thegamers.net [This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 02-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Arabian Posted February 23, 2000 Author Share Posted February 23, 2000 Yes, youre right. I can click on every unit crammed into the church in CE. Thats true. However, wouldn't it be easier if there were a label indicating which unit was which type? When I've got a bunch of chewed up teams in a small area, it would be better from a UI standpoint to not force the user to click in juuuuuust the right spot to find out what teams were in that space. Wouldnt it clarify matters if you saw floating labels indicating what units are there? And no, I'm not talking about losing units in the woods - between being able to turn on bases and turn off trees, thats not the issue. What I'm suggesting is to give the commander exactly what he would have if he had a grease pencil and a map. I'm certain there is a way to prevent the area from being cluttered - of course you could toggle them on and off as one thing, but if you staggered hights, put leaders on the text, that sort of thing, it could be done in a fairly straightforward and usable way. As I said though - its a low priority UI issue - one of those things that just make it a little more usable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted February 23, 2000 Share Posted February 23, 2000 Just do what Steve suggested in the GD preview - hit shift-c a couple times until you have Attack of the 50ft GIs. You should have no problem spotting any of your units. And Madmatt is right, unit bases are your friends. An added bonus of keeping unit bases on is that knocked out vehicles don't have unit bases so it's easy to spot them, especially if the vehicle's status changed during a turn. That happened jsut a few minutes ago in a PBEM game. I was watching the chaos of the rest of the battle and glanced over to check on the status of the Tiger and NO UNIT BASE. I couldn't believe it. I was so happy. So I rewound the to see the beautiful death of the big pussycat. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teutonic Posted February 23, 2000 Share Posted February 23, 2000 One other thing to try would be the + and - keys to go to the next or previous unit. Granted it might take awhile in a large battle but it will get you there. Teutonic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beetlecat Posted February 23, 2000 Share Posted February 23, 2000 At the risk of mentioning an RTS... I think Homeworld's system of using different polygons around each unit type to be quite useful (just a quick toggle on/off to see what's where) and would certainly not be a 'clutter' (even the full names of units wouldn't be a clutter, if you quickly toggled it back off again). Just a nicety to help us that would rather carry on with the turn than play the memory game with our units. As to the subject of dead bodies/unit losses blah blah blah... Would a quick info flash above the unit when it takes a hit (ala tanks/guns) be out of the question? This would help eliminate the illusion that the men are simply vanishing as well keep the game tidy enough for even the most rigid of German guidelines... (what about those flags, eh?) I am truely marveled by this game and will certainly buy it with great haste when it arrives. - But the fact that I find myself still using my imagination to fill in missing gaps (infantry losses, etc) when so much else is elaborated to almost absurity - It leaves me wondering if ever the total immersive experience will come? Until Steel Panthers IV, that is! -Beetlecat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snark Posted February 23, 2000 Share Posted February 23, 2000 Good point about finding units How abut a unit index window? open window see list of units, and their status. ie. Wiped out. Click on a surviving unit and it highlights on the screen/map as if youd clicked on it there. Easy to find that panzerchreck unit in a crowd. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 23, 2000 Share Posted February 23, 2000 A Arabian, Minor comment.. IF your units are so close you can't make them out then they are FAR too close together. If they're that close together than a burst from an enemy machinegun could damage 3 to 4 different squads. If your squads are EVER less than 10 metres apart then they are much too close together.. IOW if you are playing right you shouldn't run into this problem since unit spacing considerations should argue against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Arabian Posted February 23, 2000 Author Share Posted February 23, 2000 Fionn, In general, you're right - but it does happen. Happend twice in a recent battle, actually. Once when I was withdrawing like crazy and there was only one spot out of LOS for a rally point of sorts, and a second time when the attacker was massing forces - once again, it was a safe spot due to where my forces were set up. Didn't know about the +/- thing though. Man - I've been reading this board for a year and a half (yeah - I'm old school - pre UBB ) You'd think I'd have learned to read the hotkey window. That will work to solve my problem though. I still would like to have unit labels toggle-able, but it sounds like I'm a single voice in the wilderness. A. Arabian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 23, 2000 Share Posted February 23, 2000 Ah, I get you now.. Well, in those circumstances I just use + and - or a top-down view ( view 5) myself. I don't have much problem with the problem you describe though.. I generally keep a lot more spaced out than you plus I don't congregate my men in cover anymore. FAR too dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts