pcelt Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 May I place this observation in the context of unqualified praise of an excellent game---in fact my all time favourite---- and I have nothing but admiration for the brilliant programming and sound and visual feel of the game......except in my view in one aspect. I do not feel that the large town/city type graphics have the right visual "feel" of European urban environments and particularly of the 1940,s . The urban tiles seem to be based mainly on a grid-type and regular block formation with buildings well spread when European urban environments are usually much more irregular,including many streets with curves and bends, and a townscape much more cramped and diverse in nature. The result,in my view, is that urban fighting does not have the same authentic feel or in some aspects the appropriate tactical needs which a 1940's European urban landscape would often dictate I must add that I have no skills as a game programmer and it may well be that using different,more cluttered and less regular urban tiles would not be feasible or practical. But my view is that ,if such an alternative urban tile set were feasible it would add greatly to the in-game feel of authenticity and to the reality of the tactical demands in European urban fighting. Please accept this critique in the spirit in which it is offered . I acknowledge that in so many ways this is a superlative game--the very best there is----I just feel less convinced visually and tactically by the fully urban environment and feel that, if feasible, some graphical alternatives here would further enhance the feel of authenticity and immersion in those types of battles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 I think we'd all agree with you to a degree, however limitations of the specs that BTS were programming too, as well as simply limitations in terms of time I guess, meant that more complex city/town stuff was not going to happen this time around. Keep a close eye on CM2 development when it begins, we expect to see a lot done in this department PeterNZ ------------------ --------------------- __COMBAT____VISION__ *Film from the CM Front* http://combatvision.panzershark.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Feel free to design your own urban environment--seriously. You can create a city just about any way you like with the excellent editor. You can make the spacing on bldgs closer or spread out. Plus there are plenty of bldg tiles with are angled to give a less "well planned" look. Try it... ------------------ Land Soft--Kill Quiet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanco Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 I go along with you there. I live in France, and if you visit a small town, you will see that the streets and buildings are "placed" in a more haphazard fashion. But I get the feeling it would be a lot of trouble to program. One can see that the basic tile setup is 'one building per tile', and I can see the reason behind this as it must facilitate greatly the pathfinding AI as any vehicle can cross any tile that has a building on it. Not to mention the other AI's, it must be easier for them when they can analyze each tile according to a standardized formula. Some of the French towns I've visited, I'd hate to have to explain to a computer how to get around them... a real mess! However, I would be happy for a greater variety of building façades in CM2. City landscapes are not really convincing visually because there are a grand total of about 2 'large building' façades wich causes any large city layout to be visually repetitive. 'A Walk in Paris' is a glaring example. How about it, modmakers? Some new building fronts? Anyway, some of the buildings look like they belong in Alsace-Lorraine, not Normandy... so there is some room for improvement on this front, I feel. DeanCo-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 I feel the same way about urban diversity, but I'm well aware that it's just not practical to model it in Combat Mission. Atomic started Close Combat (visually) a bit like this, and then made it more realistic in CC2 - but the AI isn't particularly clever at utilising the terrain. I'd far prefer a nicely working game than a nice looking game. However, the realism of a map is much more to do with design than the game engine. It takes a bit more time and thought to create a convincing town, but it is possible. A couple of weeks ago I designed a scenario specifically for this purpose. You'll see a post about it over in the Scenario forum - please download it and let me know what you think. David ------------------ There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiram Sedai Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 I am reminded of SimCity when reading this thread. Until now, I haven't inspected the buildings for consistency etc. I am somewhat hesitant in editing/creating scenarios, so I'll just keep reading. Don't mind me. ------------------ -Work Hard -Type Fast -Save Often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Ack...posted into the wrong thread. [This message has been edited by Ben Galanti (edited 08-25-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Check out the latest Arnhem operation by Jeff Roland. Its not perfect but is very well done. I'm sure Steve and charles feel the same way as we all do. We would all love to have photorealism. But patience is hard to come by when we humans only live to 86 years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcelt Posted August 26, 2000 Author Share Posted August 26, 2000 No. Im not requesting photorealism or any major code changes but just that the urban centres are a little more convincing than currently as European centres with a 1940's vintage. These were much less uniform and regular , much more cluttered and diverse. Various designers (Arnhem Bridge, Trojan Horse etc) have shown that imaginative game design can give the overall city area a better and more authentic feel as a European urban centre. But we are still stuck with very uniform buildings in appearance and height etc. This makes city and town centres very repetitive and unconvincing. What some others and I are respectfully requesting is that some graphic artists who are currently producing excellent new vehicle and grass textures etc consider the possibility of devoting some time to providing a greater variety of city building facades (eg shop, factory office station etc) , different building heights ,colours and any other practical variations so that urban centres can have a more authentic,convincing and immersive quality as historic European cities. Currently the rural, village and small town environments are excellent and make gameplay convincing and immersive----but I think the city centre environment currently lacks authenticity and gameplay immersiveness. If any graphic artists can contribute some diversity on the lines suggested above I think the game would benefit and many of us would be very grateful. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanco Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 Well...if it counts, I already stuck my face looking out 1 of the windows in a small building! Unfortunately, I have yet to see it or notice it in any of the games I've played (sigh)....back to the drawing board. DeanCo-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathfinder Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 pcelt, et all... go to the editor and make your own town.... a haphazard one CAN be made but it takes time and patience.... ------------------ unca pathy will show ya the path, if only he could find it himself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 Good points PCelt, We have been pushing for more tiles and models, particularly with buidlings and cities. In fact a number of variants to standard buildings were added shortly before release. However new building types, Which do require some modelling are going to have to wait a bit, perhaps until CM2 Special buildings are also under dicussion, factories, high rises, commisar's house, etc etc.) It's a matter of workload/time. The need is definately there. ALso some of the larger buildings in CM have only a N-E-S-W orientation (4-point) when they need 8-point orientation like the small buildings.. This also gets in the way of designing bigger cities and whatnot (It really got in the way when I was doing the Villers-Bocage Operation, I had to reorient the map because of it, requiring more unsued space. Hopefully in time we'll see more models, tiles, and orientations leak out. Cheers... Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 This is an excerpt from an e-mail discussion with pcelt: The problem with this, is that CM currently allocates building textures randomly. You have small light buildings, small heavy buildings, large light buildings and large heavy buildings. There are a few different textures for each, but they are random - so load up the scenario once and a given building will have "large light building, texture 1", but the next time you load it up, it'll have "large light building, texture 2". These stay the same throughout a game, but they change when you start a new game. So before anyone does any modification to the appearance of buildings, BTS will first have to create more building types. They'll probably need factories for the Eastern Front, so we'll see what else they come up with. David ------------------ There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT [This message has been edited by David Aitken (edited 08-26-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 It would seem to me that another problem faced by third-party building texture designers is lack of readily-at-hand material to work from. I'm sure that the guys designing tank textures have authentic photos and paintings out the wazoo to work from. How many possess good architectural studies of representative European cities of the 1940s? Not many of those on wargamers' bookshelves, I'd wager. It's an area that deserves some concentrated study. Everybody sorta thinks they already know all about this stuff, but to quote the Firesign Theater: "Everything you know is wrong." Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys: It would seem to me that another problem faced by third-party building texture designers is lack of readily-at-hand material to work from. I'm sure that the guys designing tank textures have authentic photos and paintings out the wazoo to work from. How many possess good architectural studies of representative European cities of the 1940s? Not many of those on wargamers' bookshelves, I'd wager. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think you'd be surprised at what one can find with a little looking. Any half-decent illustrated history of the war, and there are a lot of those, will have some space devoted to the pre-war situation, and will usually have peace-time photos of major cities, and sometimes smaller towns and villages. I would imagine that this would also be true of social histories of the war and the inter-war period, although I'm afraid I can't think of any specific titles off the top of my head. Not as easy as finding a picture of Panther D, I grant you, but possible none the less. I also wonder how much the smaller villages in France that were relatively unscathed during the war -- there must have been a few, even in northern France -- have changed over the years. Less than one might think I'd wager, although this is only surmise on my part. ------------------ Ethan ----------- Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Steiner Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 Hi <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu: I think you'd be surprised at what one can find with a little looking. Any half-decent illustrated history of the war, and there are a lot of those, will have some space devoted to the pre-war situation, and will usually have peace-time photos of major cities, and sometimes smaller towns and villages. {Snip} I also wonder how much the smaller villages in France that were relatively unscathed during the war <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Check out any of the excellent 'Then And Now' Series of books/magazines for just this sort of info. I have their Battle Of Bulge, Panzers In Normandy and Blitzkrieg In The West volumes and it is totally amazing how many buildings from wartime are still about with virtually unchanged facades ! In fact most readily apparent difference between pics from 'then' and those from 'now' is the quality and width of roads. In 1940s many roads appear to be what we would probaly term tracks or C class roads, and are a lot narrower than todays versions. Cheers ------------------ Sgt Steiner Belfast NI UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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