Jochen Posted April 5, 2000 Share Posted April 5, 2000 Sorry, but i still wanna know (even by getting on your nervs, dear BTS-Team), is it a bug that will be fixed, that the AI-Squads don´t enter the 2nd floor of the buildings - like it is in the beta??? It´s very important, to my opinion, that they should do - better fireposition, better LOS ..., especially in urban fightings. Sorry for my pressure - but please answer me. Greetings form Germany Jochen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted April 5, 2000 Share Posted April 5, 2000 Althought units do indeed have a better field of fire from the second level of a structure, I find that they also draw much more fire to themselves (this is not good when there are enemy tanks). I almost never put my anti-tank teams in the second level like I did with the CC series (top-down advantage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Posted April 5, 2000 Author Share Posted April 5, 2000 Yeah, even when there are enemie tanks - it makes sense. But, for example, in CE, the us-troops (AI), after the Stugs are killed, could defend them in much better way, if they would put their MGs in the 2nd-floor of the two farmhouses and the church. Please, anyone here of BTS, give me an answer. Jochen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iggi Posted April 5, 2000 Share Posted April 5, 2000 In SPR the guy holding the machine gun ammo was frozen on the straircase. That's why the american soldiers upstairs had no more ammo. That ammo holder was probably in the beta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 5, 2000 Share Posted April 5, 2000 Hello Jochen, Sorry, I never got around to responding to your previous post. I've missed a few lately You are correct. The AI will not move upstairs during a battle, though it will retain setup positions that happen to be on the second floor until it feels the urge to move. The reason why the AI wasn't coded up for this is because it is tough to do and not really beneficial during the game. Because we have limited time we decided this feature wasn't worth the effort. Lanzfeld hit upon some of the reasons why this isn't a big deal. Another big reason is that infantry on the second floor are pretty much useless if someone controls access to the first floor. And because close combat is abstracted, two units in the same building will fight each other even if they are on seperate floors. So there is no "trick" of putting human units on the 2nd floor and being safe because of that. The most important 2nd story positions are defensive ones with heavy weapons in scenarios where such a view is actually more beneficial than being on the first floor. Often the case is that both are in practical terms about the same. And again, because the second story is riskier place to be in, I myself find that I don't put guys up there too often DURING the battle. I've lost more than a few units because of the extra time it took to get them out during an enemy close assault. Think about it. If you have an HMG on the first floor and one on the second, how much sooner do you have to plan a pull out for the one on the top floor than the one on the bottom? At least a whole turn sooner. And in a fast changing environment this can be the difference between making it out. Having said all of that... we are probably going to code up something where the AI will move a unit from downstairs to upstairs when there is an enemy unit up there. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted April 6, 2000 Share Posted April 6, 2000 Good post Steve. Interesting. Another bug question, if you don't mind... Was the Beta Demo bug/cheat of "pause" times ever get fixed? You know, when you would plot a single waypoint right near the unit and then drag that waypoint where ever and still maintain an anywhere from a one to a ten second pause instead of whatever (high) second pause? Just like to know, 'cause that could lead to some unfair advantages in the Gold Version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted April 6, 2000 Share Posted April 6, 2000 Yes it was fixed. I asked the same question last week...because I missed it when someone else asked it last month! ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 6, 2000 Share Posted April 6, 2000 Oh, just to make it clear. The AI tweak I mentioned at the bottom of my previous message will *NOT* happen for CM v1.0. We are in no frame of mind to start screwing around with AI coding at this late date! Oh boy could that ever screw up our release target date Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Posted April 6, 2000 Author Share Posted April 6, 2000 Hi Steve, thanks for your answer, you are very kind. I don´t want to bring up a new dicussion at this time for the using of 2ndfloor using - but, hmmmm, i think it´s one of the most important things in urban fighting and in every military tactic, to get a higher ground position (hills, houses...) to fight the enemy. Of course, it would be a lot of work to code the AI NOW for that, but for a game like CM, i think it´s essential to have the use of the second floor, - for what are there second floor buildings anywere, if during the battle they are not used. Only blocking LOS, eyecandy?? As a commander i can´t say to my soldiers "Hey, guys, don´t use the second floor, cause there you can be seen better and shot at!". They could answer me "But, from there we can see even the enemie better, to shoot at him!" - So, what? Don´t get me wrong - i know, that we can not have all in CM. But i´m little bit disapointed about the "non 2nd using". For CM2 (Stalingrad...) - will it be there in? You know all, that if an enemie squad is in the 1st flooor, your MG in the 2nd floor still can shoot at other lociations... (Sorry, my english is not good enough to explain exactly what i wanna say, but i hope you´ll get it anyhow, hrrgmmm). Well, as a defender, as you said, i can put my troops on the 2nd floor, will the AI do this to, by setting up the troops before the battle beginns? Thanks a lot! Greetings from Germany Jochen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted April 6, 2000 Share Posted April 6, 2000 Hmmm ... you mean we can't use the second floor? Ack ... dead men or not, 'useless' or not, i would still like to be able to place my men in the second story of a building. MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Posted April 6, 2000 Author Share Posted April 6, 2000 No, no Kraut. YOU can, but the AI can also, but not during the battle, only in the setup phase. The AI won´t use the 2nd floor during battle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sabot Posted April 6, 2000 Share Posted April 6, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kraut: Hmmm ... you mean we can't use the second floor? Ack ... dead men or not, 'useless' or not, i would still like to be able to place my men in the second story of a building. MK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You can place/move the units you control on the 2nd story. The AI will also place units it controls on the 2nd floor during the set-up phase, it just won't move them there during a battle for the reasons Steve stated earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted April 6, 2000 Share Posted April 6, 2000 Whew, that really scared me ... thanks for the good news MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 7, 2000 Share Posted April 7, 2000 Jochen, As I said above the second story is not as important during a battle as you seem to think. A quick check and you can see that you are the first person in 6 months after release of the Beta Demo to mention this. It can't be that big of a deal The point is that the initial positions are the most important ones. The average scenario is decided probably in 10 turns of combat during the middle of the game. If the units are not in place BEFORE that time, repositioning them during/after probably won't help. LOS from the second story is not all that it is cracked up to be. Very often it gives no greater or lesser view than the downstairs. And usually when it does these are good starting positions and will already have units in them. Also, since we take the angle of fire into account, it can be easier to hit enemy targets from the ground level. MMG/HMGs are penalized with a minimum range when firing from the top story to simulate the fact that they have a limited ability to angle their fire downward. So in close quarters combat it is generally a bad idea to have MGs located on the second story. And as I outlined above, it is often a bad idea to have anybody on the second floor. Getting trapped on the second story is too easy to have happen and close combat WILL happen between the two floors even if the AI won't move upstairs. So... when it is all looked at, the lack of in-game repositioning upstairs by the AI has a minimal impact on the game at the most. Sure, it would be better if the AI had that extra degree of flexibility for the odd case or two where it makes sense, but overall it isn't necessary. Again, 6 months and this is the first we have heard about it, so it can't be that critical Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 04-06-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Foobar Posted April 7, 2000 Share Posted April 7, 2000 I think this MIGHT be the right thread to ask this question in. Do units on the 2nd floor get any bonus when firing on units in the 1st floor? or are they just as effective against intruders on the First floor. Someone around here posted once about hiding 2 squads of infantry on the 2nd floor, and annhililating the assault squads that were coming to get the Mg-er also up on the 2nd floor. Would those two squads have the same Firing bonus / penalty on the 2nd, as they have on the 1st? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 7, 2000 Share Posted April 7, 2000 Honstly, I'm not sure. I don't think there is any particular advantage/disadvantage when firing between floors, other than what I think happened in the case you mentioned. The hiding squads most likely got the drop on the intruders and at that range BOY DOES THAT HURT!! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Posted April 7, 2000 Author Share Posted April 7, 2000 Hi Steve, thanks a lot. Yes, i asked myself, why nobody else said it before. Moon gave me an E-Mail and said nearly the same things to me - and of course, the game is still super. I saw the "problem" with the 2nd floor especially in Riesberg (playing the Germans), when all Shermans are knocked out and an Infantrybattle is going on. In this case i won every time against the AI, cause i used the 2nd floors in a combination of longrange fire squads, protected by SMG-Squads in the groundfloor - well, as you said...., last night i nearly lost the battle against the US (heheh). But again, as my military training was, we learned at the german army to take those upperfloors to get all the angles and firepositions against an attacking enemy. Cause of that, i thougt, CM is very realistic, so this should be in the game - regardless if i am the only person in 6 months. Steve, Moon said, that you are still working on that AI-2ndfloor story, especially in CM2, and if not .... i still love the game and you all at BTS. Go on - and thank you very much for your time to answer me! Greetings from Germany Jochen P.S. As the most of us "military-guys", i wanna have "all" in such a super-game. Would like to see, that a 50.cal MG is entering the 2ndfloor of a lonsome farmhouse to kick my ass ......... you know what i mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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