Spook Posted January 1, 2000 Share Posted January 1, 2000 That "perspective" post is very much appreciated to get this topic on an even keel again, Los. Well stated. To add to Los's view, Capt M., this isn't directed only to you, because for your age, your confidence in understanding historical events would hardly be unique. When I was much younger, instead of the balding old man I now am, I presumed to know a lot on the American Civil War----another historical event that can be increasingly & easily warped by political correctness. But later on, when I chose to study a single event in that war---the Battle of GEttysburg-----it took me ten years of study to connect the dots as to why things happened as they did. (Shows you what a slow thinker I am.) And no one book gave all the answers, it was years of cross-referencing through dozens of Gettysburg books. OK, back to the subject. Sure, CM easily lends itself to modeling smaller-scale firefights in the Modern era, especially the infantry-focal skirmishes of 'Nam. I think the greater challenge to CM for the Modern era would be attempting to model the armor and anti-armor elements, given the much-increased ranges of lethality for those weapons. Most certainly, larger maps would be needed unless attempting a larger unit scale like platoon-level. Prior SP2 players can disagree, of course, but that's only my opinion. So for now, as others have argued, CM should probably stick to WW2 as a historical theme. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 1, 2000 Share Posted January 1, 2000 I think a Vietnam game would probably lend it's self better to the Myth engine. It shows every member of the squad and it can be used to simulate small groups of infantry or large battles. Oh yeah, I'm 14 and the "Ted" offensive thing is still funny to me. Use some common sense. If you're not sure of something look it up. I don't think they would name a military action after some guy named Edward. Now I'm really worried that I made a spelling mistake. Ah well my history teachers don't seem to care. ------------------ "I'm tired of quotes, tell me what you know" -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted January 1, 2000 Share Posted January 1, 2000 Well Y2K ate my first draft of this reply (actually a book I was using for reference fell on the keyboard and whacked it! ) First off I will refrain from making any direct comments on our young Military commentator till the end and focus on what elements that I see would need to be added or re-worked in order to make CM Vietnam era complient (Geez, working with Y2K too much! ). CAS: CM does a very admirable and realistic depiction of fighter bomber assets for WWII era aircraft but the coordination available between soldier and pilot then and what was available (sometimes!) during the American involvemnet in South East Asia is considerably different. Some tweaking to the attack profiles and loadouts would be required to handle the varity of aircraft employed in this role short list): A-1e Skyraider, OV-10 Bronco, F4 Phantom, F-100, F-105 and the variety of 'Puff the Magic Dragon' style gunships. Just imagine what it would look like in the game when Puff opens up with those miniguns on a treeline at night during a Firebase assualt. The large air campaigns (Arc Light Missions and Linebacker I, II etc..) would be out of the scope of small units engagements... Another component which any depiction of Vietnam would need to model is the tatcical use of Helicopters. Unlike other aircraft in the game these would certainly HAVE to be onscreen. And that would probably be the largest single improvement required to the game code. AH-1 Cobras, UH-1 (all models!) Hueys, CH-53 Sea Stallions and the list goes on...These would need to be incorporated onscreen in order to faciliatate both heliborn operations and assualts. Landings and Extractions via Helo would make for some interesting tactical challenges I would think.. One last element of South East Asia conflict would have to be Brown Water Operations (Riverine War). This usually dismissed in most games and has not ever gotten the attention I think it deservers (Apocalypse Now's rather unique vision not withstanding). Monitors (assualt boats with enclosed armored turrets mounting a wide variety of weaponry), PBR's(River Patrol Boat), PCF's (Fast Patrol Craft: Swifts), ASPB's(Assault Support Patrol Boat), even PACF's hovercraft(Patrol, Air Cushion Vehicle). Direct fire mortars, flamethrower and water cannon armed boats bristling with .50's and M-60's patrolling the Mekong delta. There is a wealth of material out there for such Brown Water Navy Ops... It could be done, and who knows it may be someday, I just wanted to bring up a few things that should also be taken into consideration... Now Capt. my Capt. (sigh) what are we to do with you? Well first off let me say that not all teachers are so Politicaly Correct as one poster mentioned. Sure the majority must confine their areas covered due to limitations of scheduling and current interest as well as directed curriculum but there are some notable exceptions. My brother etaches at a very well regarded private all boys High School and each year he hosts a Vietnam day. Its gets local coverage in the media (all positive! ) and on several occasions he has very respected Vets and authors come to speak to the kids. Several times the Author of Lima 6 (excellant book on Nam BTW) has come and spoken as well as weapon demonstrations by local Army units. But then he (like everyone in my family ) is the exception not the rule... Benny please try and be aware of the consciquences of some of your bold statements. I know you mean well and are defending what you believe is right just be sensitive to the fact that many people will not see eye to eye with your opinions and that is all they are OPINIONS and everyone has them my friend...If you would like to read some good books about the war SouthEast Asia Ican recommend a few right off the bat. Lima 6 as mentioned above.. Battle for Hue, Death Valley and Into Laos all by Keith William Nolan, I would highly reccomend Battle for Hue, it is moving, chilling and wil introduce you to the talents of one Mr. Dale Dye (yeah, the guy who is in all the war movies and does the actor combat training!) Madmatt out... ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! combathq.thegamers.net [This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 01-01-100).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Posted January 1, 2000 Share Posted January 1, 2000 Capt_Manieri <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you look at Vietnam from a historical stand point, basically Vietnam had tons of "little" skirmishes that ended in a lot of Americans getting killed. One "Charlie" in a tree would pick off 8 Americans before biting it himself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Worrying to realize how History is teach... And what about the vietnamese ? I think the infamous "kill ratio" was not 1 vietnamese/8 americans, but rather 8/1 due to the tremendous fire power of US troops ; even more actually... Not to mention the South Vietnam army, who suffered heavy losses. I think it's dangerous to forget that not only the Americans suffered over there ! Regards, Magnus ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 1, 2000 Share Posted January 1, 2000 Madmatt, I certainly wasn't condeming all history teachers... had a few good ones myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nijis Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 My high school history teacher was a Vietnam vet. Personally, I'd quite like to see BTS some time down the road do a Mideast version. I live in Egypt, and I've been trying to get folks interested in wargaming for some time. The military's got a high presence here (hell, they run the place) and are always trumpeting their "victory" of 1973, but people have very little understanding of what actually happened. Particularly the generation born since 1973, particularly the rich kids -- they're more likely to be the sons of the brass of the wars than of the field officers and troops, and they're also more likely to get out of military service. Egyptian vets are not encouraged to share their experiences; instead, the military puts out an endless series of pageants, movies, and documentaries carefully edited to give the impression that you run up a sand dune, plant a flag, and the Israelis surrender. '48 was only a defeat because we had defective rifles; 67 only happened because we weren't given a chance to fight; etc. Given the barrage of propaganda combat could be terrifying and unpleasant simply does not occur to people -- audiences in Private Ryan thought the beach scene was a comedy, and were laughing all the way through. Anyway, I've tried to get folks interested in wargaming via Steel Panthers and TOAW -- "See? This is how you guys crossed the canal!" -- but the format (hexes, top-down views and unit symbols) simply isn't engaging. CM would be. Of course, I might have a hard time explaining why every Egyptian infantry unit isn't related "elite," and why one RPG team can't stop a battalion of Israeli tanks. But I'd sure be grateful if I got a chance to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 Berlichtingen. I didn't think you were, I was just using your statement as a way to mention one teacher who goes above and beyond, namely my brother Dave. When I was in seventh grade my Civics and American History teacher was in the same wargaming group as I. It was hard to not just call him John! Madmatt out ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! combathq.thegamers.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 While I think that the CM engine will handle moden stuff well (by the time we get to that stage we will be many release/mods etc down the road). Though the current LOS checking and views tools etc, arguably very good for the battles we're fighting now, will need to be reworked a bit to handle looking at things much farther away. (yes I know we can do plenty of 1km or less battles but for longer range actions out to 3-4km.) Cheers... Los P.S. No offence in my comments to history teachers and their military history knowledge (particularly as it might pertain to things at the CM scale) but anyone who has acquired that knowledge woudld have gotten most of it on their own dime not at University. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 OK, some "official" responses and then I am going to lock this one up 1. There is nothing wrong with being young, but there is something wrong with being young and arrogant. I was very interested in warfare at the age of 16 and even spent much of my money on military books and models. I aced all my history classes with hardly a text book cracked open. I thought I knew a lot. Now, many years later, I know that I knew next to nothing at 16. I now know a LOT about WWII, and also have a fair grasp of warfare in other periods. But I would never be so foolish to argue about non-WWII aspects with someone who has studied the area in question as I have WWII. I received a degree in History, but that does not make me an expert in "History". 2. I was fortunate enough to have good history teachers in all my years of schooling. However, I could trounce all of them save two (university level) when it comes to WWII. History teachers, especially in HS, are GENERALISTS. This means that they have a decent (or should have!) knowledge of a great many things, but lack much depth in any particular one. This is a good thing BTW, not a slight. To echo Los' statement... if they DO have a deeper understanding of a particular aspect of history, it is probably coming from a hobby than schooling. And the most important point... 3. CM will never simualte Vietnam. CM was designed, from the get go, to be WWII. Unlike other games, we can't tweak a thing or two and make CM into something that it isn't. Plus, we have about 12 years worth of WWII development scheduled ahead of us, and Vietnam is NOT part of that plan. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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