Guest hunt52 Posted February 25, 2000 Share Posted February 25, 2000 All right - I now hold the record for least competant tank crews (unless someone can top this): 1. Sgt. Wynn engages a Stug from a range of (!) 110 M. His first shot misses. Ok I think - the next one will nail him. He misses again. The stug has not seen him. I think, al right you better hose him now!. Now the stug has targeted another of my tanks that does not see it. It is under fire and buttoned. I think - ok Wynn - hose the stug before it can get Sgt. Albin... But No! Sgt Wynn retargets and fires at a SMG squad! Albin is brewed up and the turn ends The next turn - I politely inform Sgt. Wynn to SHOOT THE STUG!!! He misses (again). His next shot finally hits and immobilizes the StuG. He is brewed up by the StuG's first shot. Sgt. Simpson then flanks the immobilized StuG and fires at a range of (!!) 75 M. He misses. He fires again, and misses once more (!) He is then brewed up by another StuG he did not see. I have never had less competent tank crews before. I realize I was not concentrating firepower, but I figured one shot from 100 M agains a vehicle that did not see me would be all she wrote... Thank heaven this is against the AI! - Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hunt52 Posted February 25, 2000 Share Posted February 25, 2000 I remember why I posted this - can there be a "Soldiers Courtmarshalled for Gross Negligence and Incompetence in the Face of the Enemy" at CMHQ? I have about 20 candidates... - Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted February 25, 2000 Share Posted February 25, 2000 I have seen that happen with the tankers as well. I was confounded by it...and the situation exists with rifle squads (also) that stop movement to engage an enemy SMG squad that is 400 meters away... OTOH I have had some butt-kicking mortar crews that have smoked the 88's at Reisburg beautifully. Lemme know when you find the "sierra" list...I have some tankers with the same names who need re-training. [This message has been edited by ARCHANGEL (edited 02-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted February 25, 2000 Share Posted February 25, 2000 Sounds like a fine example of that awesome mutual support feature allegedly included in the A/I. ------------------ Floreat Jerboa ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted February 25, 2000 Share Posted February 25, 2000 "But No! Sgt Wynn retargets and fires at a SMG squad! Albin is brewed up and the turn ends" One thing i really dislike about CM. I hope the final product will not "feature" such crazy behavior. If so, it could be just as frustrating as seeing your tanks spin around in circles (cc4 anyone?). MK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 25, 2000 Share Posted February 25, 2000 Well the AI back then, while pretty good (at least I thought so at the time) isn't a patch on the AI that's in now. Here's a little example from a scenario featuring Barkmann in Normandy... I had Barkmann's Panther covering a small sideroad leading to the flank of an infantry unit which was set up to ambush the main road running through the area (and had, with Barkmann's Panther) killed 4 Shermans already. Anyways, I could hear some US tanks around a bend in the road so I ordered my Panther to climb a little embankment where the road turned leftwards where there was a house on its right side (thus protecting my right flank from fire). Anyways the turn ended with the Panther spotting a Sherman at a range of 57 metres in front of it.. I figured the Sherman would be an easy kill because I expected it to try to reverse out of range. What the Sherman did surprised the hell out of me.. Using its speed and superior turret traverse it RACED down the road towards my Panther, passed me by on the left side, stopped behind me (since my turret couldn't traverse fast enough to track it at such close range I couldn't shoot at it) and fired an AP shell into my rear hull exploding the Panther. Later on in the mission I had a Panther completely dominating the main American road of advance. It was sitting pretty behind a minefield and had taken out about 6 or 7 HTs and tanks already without getting a scratch. Well, the US tanks left the road and worked their way across country to the flank of my Panther.. I was just very lucky that I'd positioned some infantry in the field to the left of my Panther just in case the US tried to sneak some zooks up who spotted the sneaky Sherman which was sneaking through the wheatfield on my left flank... It was sneaking through the wheatfield TOTALLY hidden from my Panther's view by a big mass of bocage. In any case I spotted it just in time and gave my Panther a hasty withdraw order since the Sherman was obviously going to poke its snout through the bocage on my left flank and fire a 75mm AP into the side of the Panther from about 30 metres (instant death). I reversed and managed to survive the one shell he hit me with before entering the wheatfield and playing a cat and mouse game with the Sherman. In the end it lured me into an ambush in which it had another Sherman waiting to the side of one of the gaps in the bocage leading out of the field which it raced through. As I followed it through the gap a Sherman sitting about 80 metres to the side of the gap put a 75mm AP right through my turret ;(. The AI DEFINITELY uses teamwork and DEFINITELY is a lot smarter than it was in the beta demo. It is smart enough now to try to go for flank shots and work around your flanks and set ambushes for you and attempt to lure you in. I lost a Tiger two days ago when the AI hid a Cromwell behind some bocage and fired an AP round into my side hull from about 60 metres as my Tiger advanced towards 2 Cromwells ahead of me which were, I later realised, just racing around to try to get me to advance. The damned AI had set up this flanking ambush entire turns before springing it and had patiently kept its tank there as I butchered half of the tank company with my Tiger just waiting for that one shot it knew it would get. The bocage is hell on tanks. By the time you know you are in a fight one or other of you is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted February 25, 2000 Share Posted February 25, 2000 Great post, Fionn! Very interesting indeed. Sounds like this "final release" AI is gonna keep the game's scenarios replayable indefinately! ------------------ "Cry Woe...Destruction...Ruin and Decay. The worst is Death...and Death will have His day."--Gen. Chang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted February 25, 2000 Share Posted February 25, 2000 Whew! For a minute I thought you were referring to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 25, 2000 Share Posted February 25, 2000 Aye, I personally would rate the AI as follows: Infantry Command: Average ( makes some exploitable mistakes but never does anything stupid (stupid being defined as something no human player would ever do.. In fact, I've had MANY PBEM opponents who make far poorer dispositions and make far larger errors when commanding infantry than the AI does now). Arty Command: Average.. If you sit still it'll hurt you.. If you remain fluid it won't call it down in advance of your route march to hit where you WILL be 3 minutes from now ( then again, neither do a lot of gamers ). And since arty is rare this AI hangup actually works well for it since it usually has a few rounds left for the end-game when it can REALLY make a difference. Tank Command: I'd rate the AI as Good to Very Good for commanding tanks actually. I've had 75-armed Shermans take out a lot of Panthers and Tigers in ambushes etc. If you get careless you WILL lose JagdTigers etc too. Overall I think the AI's ability to command tanks is very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted February 25, 2000 Share Posted February 25, 2000 Fionn, does that Sherman have an oversize turret? Must have, since that commanders gotta have a huge pair of brass ones... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 25, 2000 Share Posted February 25, 2000 LOL. You are of course referring to the "frontal testes receptacle bulges" . the guys who really have balls are the Brits.. I was playing a Villers Bocage scenario and lost 4 Tigers in 15 minutes ( with 1 other immobilised and 1 other with a gun damaged) to a force comprising Cromwells and a couple of Fireflies. The AI set up 2 x 6lber guns at a branch in the road. It set them up behind a building so that I couldn't see them until I had passed them by and they took out the first Tiger which passed by the house (at the branch of the road). That's the kind of smart stuff it does. It sets up guns for flank shots, maneuvres for flank shots, reverses away from trouble etc... Sure, sometimes it might make the wrong decision in my opinion (like staying to fight instead of running etc) but generally all its decisions are reasonable and damned if it hasn't beaten me in a few fair fights. The Villers Bocage battle (which starts with NO infantry) really shows you why tanks need infantry. If I'd had infantry I'd probably only have lost 1 of the Tigers I lost. Tanks are just WAY too blind in close terrain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted February 25, 2000 Share Posted February 25, 2000 Sounds very good. If the AI isn't that bad you can always give it more stuff to get great battles. Must be pretty hard to write a decent AI considering all the variables there is in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted February 25, 2000 Share Posted February 25, 2000 I'm impressed. Sounds like Charles has worked more of his programming magic on the AI. That AI sounds so far superior to any other ground combat AI out there that I'm sure it will set an entirely new standard for AI in wargames that others with less skill than Charles will be hard pressed indeed to keep up with. In fact, with all the experience and in-depth knowledge that Steve and Charles have about CM and WWII combat, I would imagine either would make for a formidable opponent on the battlefield. How have you fared against them in battle, Fionn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted February 25, 2000 Share Posted February 25, 2000 Fionn, yet another great set of posts! Looks like this game will challenge even the most veteran of the so-called grognards. With three levels of AI, there probably won't ever be anything close to this for a long while. But that's what scares me...long ago when the "Terminator" movies came out, my fear was, "When will the machines be smarter than us?" ------------------ "Cry Woe...Destruction...Ruin and Decay. The worst is Death...and Death will have His day."--Gen. Chang [This message has been edited by Ol' Blood & Guts (edited 02-25-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 25, 2000 Share Posted February 25, 2000 Well, I haven't played Charles but I did play Steve and it was a TOUGH fight... In the end I think he would have won but we called a ceasefire which gave me the win so overall I call it a draw and am gonna wait for the gold to come out to challenge him again He's very good. Experienced, knows his doctrine, applies it well, doesn't get rattled. All in all a tough opponent. I think he'd be right at the top levels of any ranking system if he gets time to play enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraut Posted February 26, 2000 Share Posted February 26, 2000 Fionn said: "The Villers Bocage battle (which starts with NO infantry) really shows you why tanks need infantry. If I'd had infantry I'd probably only have lost 1 of the Tigers I lost. Tanks are just WAY too blind in close terrain." Hmmm ... you sure? I mean, you don't need any infantry in cc3 and cc4, and cc3 *did* win wargame of the year from PCGamer ... are you sure you're not mistaken Fionn? Why do you even need infantry in a wargame? What role did they even play in ww2, or in any war for that matter?! All they were there for is to look good in propaganda-movies ... right? Infantry ... useless ... MK - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 26, 2000 Share Posted February 26, 2000 Ahem.. The less said about THAT particular low in wargaming the better. CC1 or CC2 winning wargame of the year I can stomach since they were kind of revolutionary in their time but CC3 was just revolting (ooh, nice word play.. Plus 20 cool points to me ). I just can't wait to run into a tank-heavy battalion of Allied troops in close terrain with a German infantry Bn under my command in the CMMC. I'll show them with infantry are good for . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted February 26, 2000 Share Posted February 26, 2000 Kraut has a lot to learn doesn't he, Fionn? Right now I'm playing a PBEM game w/ Chance Encounter and I'm down to two Shermans and a half beat-up plattoon in the church. My opponent just waxed two of my plattoons up in the woodsy ridge area, including my Veteran group. I'm basically screwed without my infantry. Oh, I knocked out his three StuGs early on, but there's only so much you can do against infantry with tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted February 26, 2000 Share Posted February 26, 2000 OB&G, time to stand back and pummel. I mean, who needs all those old european historic buildings anyway. And you never know, perhaps a little woodcutting with HE on the hill will clear space for a house after the war... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bamse Posted February 26, 2000 Share Posted February 26, 2000 OB&G, Kraut was ironic, if you have played CC3,CC4 you would have understand. Fionn, such a AI don't exist in my world. I got too see it before I belive it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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