Gebirgstruppen...

[Kevin Peltz]

I thought it was pretty neat that Gebirgstruppen made it into the game- but I could not remember seeing anywhere where they were used in NW Europe from June, 1944 onwards. I found this info for anyone who wants to be historical in their scenario making:

6th SS Gebirgs Division "Nord"

Dec.'44: held in reserve, Norway, 20th Gebirgs Armee. Jan.-Feb.'45: part of LXXXX Korps, 1st Armee, Landau/Lothringen. Mar.'45: part of LXXXII Korps, 1st Armee, Trier/ Mosel. Apr.'45: held in reserve, 7th Armee, Rhein (Thuringia)until capitulation.

2nd Gebirgs Division

Late '44: moved out of Lappland to Denmark for reorganization. Feb.-May'45: fought in the Wurtemburg area until surrendering to US forces at the end of the war.

[This message has been edited by Kevin Peltz (edited 06-29-2000).]

[Freyland]

Hey Kevin

I have to admit, I really have no idea what the different groups of german troops represent. I follow the concept of the mountain troops (not going to even try to type the name), but could you briefly clarify the significance of the others?

Thanks

Jonathan

[Berlichtingen]

Damn, I'm away from my books. Gebirgsj?gers were used in the West in '44. I can't remember the name of the mountains (it starts with a V). It was the southern part of the drive across France.

[Schrullenhaft]

Berli - Vosages ?

[Kevin Peltz]

Jonathan:

I do not have the game or the demo with me right now, but I will try to do what I can from memory. I am almost bound to get something wrong, but, as I find in common with both my job and this forum, there is always a plethora of people who will be quite willing to point out my mistakes:

Gebirgstruppen- These are troops that have been trained for mountain fighting, and their skill sets and equipment reflect this: the ability to move and fight on skis, the ability to move rapidly and efficiently on steep terrain and in a thinner atmosphere, using special variants of equipment that can be broken into pack loads that could be carried on horseback or mule, etc. In reality, the Gebirgstruppen fought in almost every kind of terrain, on all fronts, including North Africa. Training and ability would range from elite to green, depending on time period, place, and circumstances.

Volkssturm- these would generally have been elderly men or very young boys, usually out of the normal age range for military service, conscripted to fight in the locale they were drawn from. They had no uniforms to speak of, other then an armband, and would be armed with whatever was available- a Panzerfaust seems to have been a favourite, at least in the photos I have seen. Training would be poor to non-existent.

Fallschirmjaeger- German paratroopers, which were nominally an arm of the Luftwaffe. Trained to land by parachute/glider, but after the terrible losses in Crete (1941), basically served as ground troops for the remainder of the war, on all fronts. Some other Luftwaffe units, mainly anti-aircraft units, could logically be in the game, too.

The Luftwaffe even had a Panzer Division- the Hermann Goering Parachute Panzer Division, that fought in Sicily, Italy, Hungary(?), and Poland...Training levels could be from elite to green.

Wehrmacht- part of what most people would call the "regular" German Army, or Heer.

Volksgrenadier- often confused with Volkssturm, Volksgrenadier units started appearing in 1944, and were used as an expedient to try and give Germany more divisional sized units to work with. Although they could consist of a lot of green troops with only a small amount of training, they could also be leavened with a lot of veterans from disbanded/destroyed regular units, so in some cases, their level of training could be quite high. Their organizational table for equipment would generally not be up to par with a like size "regular" unit. Their level of training could be anywhere from conscript to crack...

Waffen SS- I have left these guys for last, because I find it difficult to explain their origins correctly, mostly because I have a lot of trouble getting it straight- hopefully someone will throw their oar in here for me: in a nutshell (my nutshell), they started out as a few regiments of bodyguard troops answerable to Hitler, and as such, were treated as a seperate elite branch, not belonging to the Wehrmacht. Originally, they consisted of what was considered to be racially pure Aryans, and as elite units, got preference in training and better weapons (sometimes, but not always). As the war progressed, standards were lowered, and there were SS units consisting of anything but Aryans- one example would be SS Division "Handschar," that acted in Yugoslavia mainly as an anti-partisan unit, and consisted almost totally of Muslim Croats, who had strict religious and dietary requirements in line with their religion. Anyway, SS units were looked upon as fanatical, tough, well trained, and well equipped- but in the reference of CM, they could range in quality from green to elite.

I don't know if this was any help now or not, after reading it over...

[Kevin Peltz]

Vosges...? The drive on Strasbourg and Bitche?

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Vosages?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, it was something like that. I picked up a book awhile back called "When The Odds Were Even" (can't remember the author) that was about that campaign.

[Kevin Peltz]

For the Vosges drive towards Bitche and Strasbourg, I found two units called "201st/202nd Mountain Infantry," looking to be battalion sized, parent unit was the 16th Volksgrenadier Division, which looked like a catchall for a bunch of disparate units. The Gebirgs units seem to have appeared in the Strasbourg area.

[Berlichtingen]

I am almost positive that an entire division was involved. I will be going home in a couple of hours, so I will look it up then.

[Berlichtingen]

Here we go... 6th SS

Part of operation Nordwind. Operating in the vicinity of Bitche

[Smaragdadler]

I will try to post what I have read about the origins of the SS. Hope my english is good enough...

The Militia of the NSDAP (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei - National Socialist German Worker Party) was the SA (Sturmabteilung - stormtruppers). In the 1920's where much streetfigting between the political partys in Germany occured, every (?) pary had such an organisation. The KPD (Kommunistische Partei Deutschland - German Communist Party) had the 'Rotfrontkämpferbund' ( Red Front Fighter Union [?]). Also the Socialdemocrats had their own. The SA was a big organisation which was present in many towns, but most had no deeper ideological indoctrination and so Hitler decided to have a special elite formation of bodyguards which where 100% reliable Nazis which should protect him on his journeys through Germany. This group was first called 'Stoßtrupp Adolf Hitler' and had ca. 200 men. Also this formation was growing and after a while there where in different towns local groups which where used when Hitler was in this area. This local groups became collectivly known as 'Schutzstaffel' ( Schutz = protection, staffel= ? don't know in english - maybe 'squad' etc.) or short 'SS'. After Hitlers not succsecfully uprising in Munich 1923 the SA was declared illegal by the authorities but the SS was overlooked. Hitler was relesed from prison in 1924 but the prohibition of the SA lasted till 1926. In this time the SS where able to strenghten its position in the NSDAP. After 1926 the SS was going in the backgound again. The true history of the SS begins on 16. January 1929 as Hitler made the 28 years old Heinrich Himmler 'Reichsführer SS' (realm leader of SS). At this time the strengh of SS was only 280 men. Hitler ordered Himmler to form from this organisation the elite force of the Nazi party. Only the most fittest and loyal Nazis where allowed to serve in SS. As Hitler became Reichskanzler (relam chancellor) in Januar 1933 there where already 25.000 members. The SA - from which the SS was officaly a sub-organisation - had 300.000 men. At the end of the year the SA had risen to a very big organisation of ca. 2 - 3 million members, who, under the leading of Ernst Röhm demanded a going on of the revolution to realize the socialistic claims which where also made by the NSDAP in the 1920s.

Hitler was in fear that he may loose the power over his movement, because he had decided to strenghen his regime with help of the conservativs and the military (Reichswehr). In June 1934 in the infamous 'Nacht der langen Messer' (night of the long knifes) Hitler purged the rangs of the SA leaders from his opponents. This he where only able to do with the SS which was proviting the execusion commandos. After that, the SS where responsible only to Hitler himself and was growing to a complex organisation in the following years. Hitler thought of it as a armed organisation of the NSDAP who was able to destroy any opposition from any direction in germany against the power of the Nazis. The Waffen-SS was formed as the military-branch of the SS who could take part in real warfare combat and was began to organized 1938 or so. In the first time there was much struggle between the Waffen-SS and the Wehrmacht (the true German Army). The High Command of the Wehrmacht realized, that the Nazis intended to build up a regular army which was not under controll by the traditional german military but under the controll of the Nazis for their own. In January 1938 it was found out, that the Reichswehrminister (minister for military) Feldmarschall v. Blomberg hat marriaged a prostitute. So it was demanded, that he had to leave his position. His succsessor Generaloberst v. Fritsch was played out with a intrigue (Himmler's security chief Heydrich had prepared a document which claimed to proof that v. Fritsch was homosexual). As consequenc Hitler deceided that there where no sucsessor for v. Blomberg and he would take command over the Wehrmacht for himself.

So the nazis had finaly taken full control over all desisssions in the german military.

Source: Georg H. Stein - "The Waffen SS Hitler's Elite Guard at War 1939-1945"

Greetings!

[This message has been edited by Smaragdadler (edited 06-30-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Smaragdadler (edited 07-01-2000).]

[von Lucke]

http://www.gebirgsjaeger.4mg.com/index.html

[This message has been edited by von Lucke (edited 06-30-2000).]

[howardb]

Peltz: I've seen several pictures with Gebirgsjägers in Norway even saw a picture with Dietl in a Gebirgsjäger field cap up in north Norway somewhere.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by howardb:

Peltz: I've seen several pictures with Gebirgsjägers in Norway even saw a picture with Dietl in a Gebirgsjäger field cap up in north Norway somewhere.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was in 1940, during operation 'Weserübung'. They finally renamed the Gebirgsjäger barracks in Sonthofen in the mid-90s. It was the 'General Dietl Kaserne'. Unfortunately Dietl was quite a committed Nazi (and a superb general), and our previous, conservative Minister of Defense agreed that he might not be the right one for tradition of the Bundeswehr.

In the Vosges, two freshly levied Gebirgsjäger batallions, 201 and 202 were used to stop the 37th US IDs drive to Strasbourg. They were thrown into battle without even being able to zero in their weapons, and 202 simply disintegrated. 201 fought a vicious rear-guard action. On the US side, the 100 batallion (Japanese Americans) was heavily involved in the fighting. The terrain there is hilly and densely wooded, and the scenario Bruyeres in the game is probably set in the area.

Read 'Lost Batallions' by Franz Steidl (an American, despite the German name). Tells the story quite well.

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Andreas

[Aacooper]

Minor correction to Germanboy, the 442nd Regimental Combat Team was the Japanese-American unit that fought in the Vosges. Also, both examples of German mountain troops cited in the Vosges are correct.

[Guest Germanboy]

Oops - the 100th BN was part of the 442d RCT at that time. I did not want to neglect the contribution of the other parts of it, but could not remember how much they were involved. Apparently there even was a Banzai charge. According to Steidl, there was a fair amount of racism going on in the US army during that operation, although it does not look as if the 442d was deliberately wasted there.

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Andreas

[Freyland]

Thank you, all!