Talenn Posted July 12, 2000 Share Posted July 12, 2000 Ok, its me again! ; ) I did a search on Arty Smoke, but nothing seemed to cover this, so here I go: It seems to me that the AI often squanders its off-board Arty fire missions on Smoke. Not that it doesnt use Smoke effectively, mind you, it does, but the Smoke itself is often a waste IMO. With the amount of ammo it expends to smoke out a position, it could have easily eradicated the same position with HE. At the very least, they would have been so suppressed that they couldnt return fire anyway. Is there a more favorable ammo ratio for smoke rounds? By that, I mean, does firing Smoke expend less ammo points per salvo? If not, maybe it should? Just thinking out loud here, I guess. Also, the AI seems to use some pretty big guns to lay smoke. When I'm hunkered down on the defense, I'm MORE than happy to see that smoke landing...it just means I wont lose anywhere near as many troops. Perhaps specific batteries could be purchased with Smoke Ammo only and cost less or somesuch? Anyone else see this? I know there were a few threads complaining that smoke was too effective due to lack of variable area fire. Perhaps this is a counter-balance to the above? Thanx, Talenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted July 12, 2000 Share Posted July 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Talenn: It seems to me that the AI often squanders its off-board Arty fire missions on Smoke. Not that it doesnt use Smoke effectively, mind you, it does, ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Isn't this a (slight) contradiction? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also, the AI seems to use some pretty big guns to lay smoke. When I'm hunkered down on the defense, I'm MORE than happy to see that smoke landing...it just means I wont lose anywhere near as many troops. Perhaps specific batteries could be purchased with Smoke Ammo only and cost less or somesuch?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Seriously, points well taken! I would suggest maybe a greater tendency to fire smoke with arty that was normally used for it (the 4.2" wasn't called a "chemical mortar" for nothing; it was designed with gas and smoke laying in mind). Firing smoke with the bigger stuff does seem like a bit of a waste, though. ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talenn Posted July 12, 2000 Author Share Posted July 12, 2000 Intelweenie: Ok, Mr Smartguy. : ) You know what I meant, but for those of us who arent that intuitive...Yes, it EFFECTIVELY lays the smoke, and obscures the units it wants to screen, but the usage of smoke vis a vis HE is what I questioned. The HE would have removed the same units a threat, not only for the moment, but forever ; ) Talenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisl Posted July 13, 2000 Share Posted July 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Talenn: The HE would have removed the same units a threat, not only for the moment, but forever <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not necessarily-- small stuff like 81 mm mortars has a terrible time on pillboxes, , and even on emplaced guns that aren't in PBs. Sometimes it's more effective to keep it covered in smoke while you bring something else to bear on it rather than dropping HE. Infantry in trees though, and HE is where it's at. I love watching the treebursts with the new explosions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted July 13, 2000 Share Posted July 13, 2000 Question: Will artillery (either on- or off-map) drop smoke even if you don't request it to? I've never had this happen to me. Or are you talking about the AI opponent? Can't say I've seen that either, though I can see how it could. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talenn Posted July 13, 2000 Author Share Posted July 13, 2000 chrisl: Yep, I mean vs Infantry and the like..ie stuff, that Arty should have a field day with. I realize it is a valid tactic, and one that I'm glad the AI is programmed for, but I just feel there should be a purchase cost break or an ammo break when used for Smoke. Those OBA missions cost far too many scenario points to be squandered on Smoke in most situations unless they get rounds/ammo point. Perhaps they do, I cant tell, but if not, maybe they should. Michael emrys: Yes, I mean vs an AI opponent. A human opponent doesnt tend to use his 'big guns' to lay smoke in the same way. At least I would hope not ; ). Either way, its not a big deal at all, just an observation. Thanx, Talenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted July 13, 2000 Share Posted July 13, 2000 First off the AI uses smoke pretty well in the game. The AI drops smoke (just like humans do) to either keep you from seeing something or keep you from shooting at something. This block of LOS is meant to occr along a specific path. Just because YOU know that there's a bunch of your juicy infantry in location X doesn't mean that the AI knows that. (or exact composition and location) It might have a much more important use for it's few HE rounds. I guess this goes without saying (but maybe not), just because you can hit a target (even a juicy one) with artillery doesn't mean that you should. There's always limited rounds and the artillery might have a much more valuable impact somewhere else later on in support of one's plan. Los [This message has been edited by Los (edited 07-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talenn Posted July 14, 2000 Author Share Posted July 14, 2000 Los: I was under the impression that there is one 'ammo pool' for OBA. It can be used either as Smoke OR HE. That is my point. It spends alot of this 'ammo' on smoke, and doesnt seem to leave enough for HE in case that juicy target DOES appear. Its certainly not a total waste of ammo, but IMO, it would be better served conserving some OBA ammo (especially from the higher gun calibres) for HE rather than smoking (and I mean SMOKING! : ) many targets out. Thanx, Talenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted July 14, 2000 Share Posted July 14, 2000 My own OBA has an HE/smoke round mix, so why wouldn't the AI's? Also, in the demo, the mortars would continue to fire at an area with their smoke rounds if their HE ran out before the end of the turn. I don't think I've seen this in the release but I really haven't had enough time to play it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted July 14, 2000 Share Posted July 14, 2000 No a scenario designer selects the ammo loadout for all forces AI or otehrwise. Likewise in instant DYO games the system will assign an apporpriate HE/smokemix to AI units. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talenn Posted July 14, 2000 Author Share Posted July 14, 2000 Los et al: Maybe I'm just missing it...You mean for OFFBOARD Arty there is a separate Smoke ammo? I just see one ammo count on my spotter...am I just being stupid? ; ) Talenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BK6583 Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 I know this trails a post from long ago but I have to side with Talenn on this one. I've seen this enough times to actually start to wonder if it's an AI arty bug. Something does seem amiss when as the attacker (against an AI defender I know has 105mm arty or better) I stay just a tad too long in the LOS of the defender with my infantry company. I press "GO" and I hear the screem of the first rounds began to fall on my position and cringe - only to discover that it's all smoke! I'm saved and the advance continues. Like I said, I've seen this happen quite a bit and have to wonder if something's wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azazyel Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 Hi all, I have a funny tale about the AI and the use of smoke...bear with me It was a QB with custom forces for the jerry's vs. American Combined Arms Force picked by AI. I (the Germans) put a platoon of Tigers on a hill in the very back of my force. limited visibility but great cover for the tanks. After about 10 minutes of smashed tanks shattered infantry squads and general chaos caused in the American lines by this platoon of tigers, the AI figures he's had enough of this and begins to pummel the hill with approx 120 smoke rounds over 4 minutes. Nothing else came behind the smoke. I did have to move half of the platoon forward however, so it was somewhat clever on the part of the AI. just my 2pennys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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