DEF BUNGIS Posted April 11, 2000 Share Posted April 11, 2000 Playing LD tonite, I decided to do things a little differently. As the Allied commander, During turn 1 orders phase, I ordered the 2 forward platoons and bazooka team way forward into the woods in german territory for ambush set up. Turn 2 orders phase, Set Ambushes and ALL hide. (all stayed hidden til turn 5) After turn 5 it was a total german infantry slaughter. I MEAN A SLAUGHTER! I lost all my hellcats to the tiger, lost some infantry to a STUG and some of my ambush teams were starting to dwindle down to 1 and 2 man squads. AT turn 12 the AI surrendered!?!?! I dont think the germans had any infantry left, or any left that was not broken or routed. But, they still had the Tiger, one STUG, 2 half tracks, some leaders. What caculation made the AI surrender? The germans might not have been able to win the scenario, but it may have at least gained some ground, I mean, it was only turn 12. I can't picture the COMBAT RATING for the infantry being that high, for the AI to surrender. How did the AI know what I had left to justify it's surrender..?? I mean, if I had a tiger,STUG,2 half tracks and some leaders, you can bet your ass I'm not going to surrender! One last thing, I won the scenario at turn 12 and only scored an 85. I dunno........ I had over 100 men "OK" at the debriefing screen and only scored 85? ------------------ Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mch Posted April 11, 2000 Share Posted April 11, 2000 pure speculation here.... (Nearly)the same thing happened to lil' ol'me last week.I was thinking that without infantry,the VL's couldn't be taken or held. I was never really shure.Vehicles just don't seem to matter much to the AI(wich they shouldn't). ------------------ It is no disgrace to be defeated...It is a disgrace to be surprised. -attr.to Fredrick the Great- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyamoto Musashi Posted April 11, 2000 Share Posted April 11, 2000 Now THERE's an AI scenario I haven't encountered... I've played the little ambush game and taken my toll, sweeping across the hill after an initial ambush while at the same time moving another small ambush group systematically across from the other side of the battlefield, but the AI never gave up for me... even after the few times (very VERY few) that I managed to keep all three of my Wildcats running while blasting all the German armor... though if those little computer guys were really smart, they'd sense the inevitable and hit the ground Anyways, I'm kinda curious now to see how many other people had a premature surrender... I think I'd feel a little cheated... the knock-down, slugfest battles that go to the last few turns are the most fun for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 11, 2000 Share Posted April 11, 2000 Can't say for sure what happened, but all that ending stuff has been redone a few times now. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted April 11, 2000 Share Posted April 11, 2000 Well it seems logical to me, historically a good way to wreck an infantry/armour attack if you had poor anti-armour capability was to eliminate the infantry. Inevitably the armour would bug out or fall prey sneaky infantry attacks. Though the spotting of infantry by buttoned up armour is far too easy for my liking in the beta demo, can't remember if this has been tweaked subsequently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted April 11, 2000 Author Share Posted April 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Can't say for sure what happened, but all that ending stuff has been redone a few times now. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> STEVE Can you tell me what caculations the AI makes to decide to surrender. How does it know exactly what the opposition has left? And where/how does it get it's inteligence from when deciding to surrender? Thanks. ------------------ Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdmorse Posted April 11, 2000 Share Posted April 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DEF BUNGIS: Playing LD tonite, I decided to do things a little differently.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I also tried things a bit diffently last night in LD but as Germans. (Hmmm cabin fever from prerelease setting in?) I loaded up everybody, I mean everyone I could and tore like a bat out of hell down the road, dumped the squads in the town by the bridge, took the StuG's and Tiger up the hill (played @ being Hellcats!!!) then set up hull down ambush for the Hellcats (who showed up in turn 11) Blasted them and then waltzed the Tiger down picking targets as I went.Sort of Alesia-style encirclement in the middle and surronding the outside as well!! My question, is that in all it was a fairly unrealistic approach that I could buzz through town, grabbing off the center and doing what I did and the AI didn't really respond much. So how is AI in actual CM going to be different than the Beta? I've heard that it has been improved but in descriptive terms (no code for me thank you very much!) how has it been improved. And to bring it back to thread, the AI started to surrender piecemeal but didn't throw in towel till turn 29 and had all of 13 scattered (on both sides of river) effectives!!!!! [This message has been edited by jdmorse (edited 04-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted April 12, 2000 Author Share Posted April 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jdmorse: I also tried things a bit diffently last night in LD but as Germans. (Hmmm cabin fever from prerelease setting in?) I loaded up everybody, I mean everyone I could and tore like a bat out of hell down the road, dumped the squads in the town by the bridge, took the StuG's and Tiger up the hill (played @ being Hellcats!!!) then set up hull down ambush for the Hellcats (who showed up in turn 11) Blasted them and then waltzed the Tiger down picking targets as I went.Sort of Alesia-style encirclement in the middle and surronding the outside as well!! My question, is that in all it was a fairly unrealistic approach that I could buzz through town, grabbing off the center and doing what I did and the AI didn't really respond much. So how is AI in actual CM going to be different than the Beta? I've heard that it has been improved but in descriptive terms (no code for me thank you very much!) how has it been improved. And to bring it back to thread, the AI started to surrender piecemeal but didn't throw in towel till turn 29 and had all of 13 scattered (on both sides of river) effectives!!!!! [This message has been edited by jdmorse (edited 04-11-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> See this falls over into the "opinions on scenario balance" thread. When you have played the map, it puts you at advantage as the attacker! Not the defender. Especially if there is a reinforcement turn for the defender. I am still wondering what caculations the AI makes to decide on surrender? What, if any advantage, does a human player gain if he surrenders? I mean, unless you are playing some type of campaign, it doesn't seem there is any advantage to surrender. So, I guess my question is, why is there a surrender option for human players? ------------------ Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted April 12, 2000 Share Posted April 12, 2000 Def, Because in a PBEM game I'd hate to be forced to continue a game knowing it is lost. I'd much rather have the surrender option, than run around for the last 10 turns dying. Lorak ------------------ http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted April 12, 2000 Author Share Posted April 12, 2000 LORAK!!! Would you really surrender? Why? I mean, you won't gain anything. So what if the flow of battle isn't in your favor. You never know....the tide may turn. At the minimum you may always be able to gain a little ground. In a ladder game that may be the difference in 100 or so points. Besides, those aren't real little army guy's running around down there, so whats wrong with a little torture. ------------------ Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted April 12, 2000 Share Posted April 12, 2000 LOL DEF, Yes I would, and have. Only when I'm sure of a defeat. If there is any chance of gaining anything I might not. But you have to think of your oppenent too. Lorak ------------------ http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 12, 2000 Share Posted April 12, 2000 Def Bungis, Dunno what the calcs are, honestly. From what I remember it weighs spotted enemy units vs. surviving friendly units. But what the actual math is for this is not known to me, nor is it really important. The AI basically makes a judgement call and that is pretty much that. Sometimes the call is good, sometimes bad. Just like in real life I'm sure any student of warfare can list off examples where one side SHOULD have surrendered, but didn't because they somehow missed "calculating" some information. And the more common is when a force surrenders when it really shouldn't have because they "calculated" the ratio incorrectly. JD, what you described certainly qualifies as "cheap move based on way too much knowledge". There is no way we can prevent that because you based that move on EXACT knowledge and had a very good idea that you could make it work. If you had no idea what the defenses were like your actions would be near suicidal. And if you didn't manage to pull it off (hey, sometimes these stupid moves actually paid off big time in real war sometimes ) you would have probably been arrested, tried, and tossed in a small cage for a while. Or at the very least stuck in some rear position for the rest of the war. When you get the full game, try something out. Make a DYO scenario and select yourself as the attacker with a mechanized force. Buy yourself halftracks and infantry for the most part. On turn one rush the flag and see what happens. Me thinks you won't be asking us to change the AI Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted April 12, 2000 Author Share Posted April 12, 2000 Thnx steve. I guess I have played those scenarios so many times the AI didn't have a chance in hell. I realy don't think the AI had ANY infantry sqauds left alive. Wich could have been the deciding factor it's surrendered. I was just wondering if it does a special caculation on it's remaining combat power. But, it's time to get out of the old and into the gold And I'm sure i'll have plenty of AI surrender testing in the near future. ------------------ Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted April 12, 2000 Share Posted April 12, 2000 Maybe if you play the same scenario 2 dozen times I gotta tell you, I've had tougher games vs. the AI than some guys I used to play Avalon Hill games against years ago! Last battle I played I got a bit ahead of myself and rushed some reserve armor up into battle, but little did I know that the Americans had me surrounded (I was defending a hill in the middle) and my armor smacked into a reinforced infantry company hitting me from the flank. Well... 2 Dead Panthers, a KO'd 250/9, and messed up PzGren platoon all in one turn... OUCH Thankfully my StuH 42 made it out of there, extracted the surviving PzGrens and managed to hold back a portion of the enemy forces. A counter attack by me on the other side (ooooo, boy did I do a textbook move on the flank there!!) managed to toss the US forces back. But I wound up with a DRAW after the 40 turns were up. Boy... tough little bastard Oh, and this yet again underscores my point about knowing the scenario. I would *NOT* lose my reserves if I replayed the scenario again. Well, at least not for no gain like what happend to me the first time. So I expect I would have cleaned the AI's clock the second time around simply because I knew what I had to deal with and would have planned accordingly. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kettle Black Posted April 12, 2000 Share Posted April 12, 2000 Re the mad charge down through the town. It is an insane tactic but weird stuff can happen... I read about an Israeli op from one of their wars. Sorry can't remember which one but I'm sure someone here could fill in on the specifics. Anyway, an Israeli tank force was ordered to break through a rather infamous pass and had an estimated chance of survival of about 0.5%. The enemy (Egyptians I think) had fortified the pass and it was as defensive positions go, a gunners wet dream. A road ran through the pass, mines on all sides of it, clear lines of fire from both of the hills surrounding the pass, excellent dug in positions for the numerous AT-Guns, armor with clear lines of fire, artillery, a heigth advantage, basically the works. When the Israeli tanks came into view the Israeli commander ordered his force to go full speed ahead in column ON the road (which wasn't mined) and not slow down for anything. The entire force went straight through the pass intact, continued, reached their distant objecive and took it. Kettle Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts