Guest aaronb Posted August 8, 1999 Share Posted August 8, 1999 Every sim or tactical game I've played had this glaring difficulty: getting the tank(s) hull-down meant a lot of manual intervention, taking time from other tasks. This hurts gameplay, and is not realistic: squad, platoon, and company commanders don't get on the radio and tell a tank driver to move back and forward until the turret just peeks over a nearby ridge. So: can I tell a tank to go hull-down in CM, and have it do something intelligent? Or do we all have to put the viewpoint on the tank, then jiggle around until it looks right? Given the intelligence you've talked about in the tactical AI, it seems (to me) that "auto-hull-down" is doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 8, 1999 Share Posted August 8, 1999 You have to do it. To illustrate why, consider that "hull down" is not determined by location and terrain only. It's also relative to a particular enemy unit. For example, moving behind a stone wall might make you hull down to and enemy tank in front of you, but not to the one on your flank. If you move over to the slope on the side, you're hull down to the tank on the flank, but no longer to the one in front. Which to choose? And if the enemy tanks move, your hull down status may disappear altogether. It's a considerably complex issue. So we leave it to the player to place the tank in a spot he hopes will be hull down to wherever the enemy units decide to move. There are no guarantees. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRourke Posted August 8, 1999 Share Posted August 8, 1999 Still, some addition tool to help would be nice.. it seems like a major game distraction to have to move the camera perspective and make minor unit position adjusments to get tanks hull down. You could let the player drag an LOS line from a selected unit, and change the lines color depending on whether the terrain is visible from the commander's hatch, the gunners sight, or the drivers periscope. I guess I'll just have to see how it plays, but I do remember the nightmare of making countless tiny adjustments to my platoon in M1TP. Of course, the pyramid shaped hills didn't make it any easier. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 8, 1999 Share Posted August 8, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You could let the player drag an LOS line from a selected unit, and change the lines color depending on whether the terrain is visible from the commander's hatch, the gunners sight, or the drivers periscope.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> CM does this. And if you drag an LOS line to an enemy tank it tells you if you're hull down to him and if he's hull down to you. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRourke Posted August 8, 1999 Share Posted August 8, 1999 Could this be extended to LOS's drawn between a tank and empty ground? After all, once you've spotted an enemy tank, its a little late to be seeking that idea hd position. I realize that the engine would have to assume an avg gun height for the imaginary enemy, but it still would be accurate enough to give you a feel for the type of cover a slope is giving. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aaronb Posted August 9, 1999 Share Posted August 9, 1999 "...relative to a particular enemy unit" You're absolutely right. I had in mind 'go hull-down relative to this ridge line', where the player picks a ridge line by dropping the LOS marker there (like designating area fire). And, if the 'hull-down' status is imprecise, because of variations in opponent gun height, misjudgement by the driver, and other factors, such a command still saves tons of time. Great to see that the LOS line indicates hull-down to a given target. So, hull-down code is already somewhere in the engine? It's late in the development cycle, so I'm hoping for the kind of surprise that led to shadows under the tanks.... Chris: as with you, M1TP1 was my first grim hull-down experience. Must have left scars. [This message has been edited by aaronb (edited 08-08-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 9, 1999 Share Posted August 9, 1999 Chris, we thought about doing the "hull down" check like you described. However... very unrealistic A tank commander didn't look at a map with little makers on it saying where he could or could not obtain hull down. Our readings showed that crews had to move to several positions to find one that worked. And once there sometimes had to move around a bit before they could get the full benefit of the terrain. Since CM's turns are only 60 seconds each, it would be too easy for players to get correct hull down positions the first time every time. And yes, hull down is in fact in the game right now. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Chris, we thought about doing the "hull down" check like you described. However... very unrealistic A tank commander didn't look at a map with little makers on it saying where he could or could not obtain hull down. Our readings showed that crews had to move to several positions to find one that worked. And once there sometimes had to move around a bit before they could get the full benefit of the terrain. Since CM's turns are only 60 seconds each, it would be too easy for players to get correct hull down positions the first time every time. And yes, hull down is in fact in the game right now. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Completely wrong Steve. The reason that you move to several positions is because of gun depression. You CAN be hull down but not able to bring your gun to bear. You would never go over the top in this situation like the game makes a lot of players do now (considering you wrote this a while ago). THAT is UNREALISTIC. The TC would inform the gunner that he (the TC) can see the target and when the gunner sees the target he calls to halt the vehicle. If the driver can see the target, he knows they have gone too far and reverses. They have aproached on too steep a slope. The TC would sense that they had gone too far also and would have reversed ordered the vehicle before the driver normally. This is done in low gear and believe it or not not that hard. The game should either have the above suggestions or something like a hunt command that allows you to see what the situation looks like from the hunt move to area. Example: Hunt command is designated in front of the AFV. The camera view will then jump to this areas viewpoint so that the player can tell if he will have a field of view that seems to achieve HD status from that spot. Perhaps even check LOS from that spot. The way the game is now, with its Kludgey 3D guestimates and AFVs blindly going over to expose themselves is beyond gamey..its hokey. Lewis [This message has been edited by :USERNAME: (edited 07-09-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Jeez, why do you always make agreeing with you so distasteful? BTS has responded to reasoned argument with rifle grenades, indirect fire mods, dead bodies, enhanced explosions, pivoting, sandbag effects on turrets, sprinting Panzerfausts, and a bunch of things I probably don't even know about or can't remember. Nobody owes us a pet feature, so why not be civil about it? State the case and move on, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Just trying to be helpful I suppose.. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Steve, I don't understand. What is so complex about picking a reference point using the Hunt command and having your vehicle simply move towards that reference point until LOS is reached by the gunner? I'm not talking about a target, i.e a enemy vechicle, I'm talking about a reference point on the map. I understand the complexity involved when you are attempting to go hull-down on a moving target, and in that case I fully understand the complexity involved. But I think a lot of us would prefer the Hunt command to be modified to simply allow the tank to move towards a reference point and stop when gunner reaches LOS of that point. No further. [This message has been edited by Ricky (edited 07-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFE Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Telling a vehicle to move into LOS of a specific location (X) is very iffy. Assuming your vehicle is on reverse slope and moves over a crest of a hill until X is within LOS, sure things would be OK. However, what is you misguess location X because of a patch of woods or a flaming vehicle? Then your vehicle would continue over the crest of the hill, down the hill, and waltz all over the place trying to get X into LOS. There are too many terrain features in most scenarios to have a new command like Hunt X location to work properly to achieve hull down. Any new commands would be great. I'm just voicing my opinion on whether Hunt X spot would achieve the desireable results in most of the scenarios I have already played. Giving an order to Hunt X location would remove your ability to plot a path because the vehicle would seek the location instead of following path orders. [This message has been edited by FFE (edited 07-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TargetDrone Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 I guess we discussed this New Feature already in Lewis' post "BTS: The hull down move" .... oh.. and steve.... i know that you are shown, if you are in a hull down position towards the target if you use the los function... but i guess, what Lewis, I and several others ask for is the ability to command a Tank to go up the hill towards the ridge until the gunner has a los on a target spot (which need not actually be an enemy... that way you could set up perfect ambushes) i guess, that in reality it was too possible for the TC to mark a terrain feature and tell the gunner to yell halt as soon as he can target it.... and if the vehicle has gone too far,the driver could reverse until he can't see it, but the gunner and TC still have a Los on it.... now, bringing a Tank into that position now would be a realy pesky work... and it would take several turns, until he is positioned right... this way, you have to waste precious time each turn just so you can see if you have gone to far or not.. so, simply tell, why it is so unrealistic to say to a vehicle ... Forward UNTIL you have reached a LOS to that point and not any meter further! sorry, if this looks like a rant, i just try to give some constructive critism, and i guess that Steve didn't catch my (and probably also Lewis') point.... (maybe i also do this because the game hasn't arrived still ) otherwise a fantastic game, im looking forward to grab it from the hands of the postman (i hope for his own sake he doesn't try to defend.....could be unhealthy...) ------------------ TargetDrone who has a heart for smilies and will defend their rights .... even if the cost is bloody.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Very good point, FFE. Target Drone - I must say that I like it as it is now. Besides the potential problems FFE mentioned, going hull down quickly depends on crew experience. It's nice that the gunner can yell when he see's a spot, but it's the driver putting the tank into a hull-down spot. The neat part is that as you play CM more, you develop an eye for hulldown spots, just like a veteran tank crew would. I am consistently able to bring a tank into a hull down position using the good Mark I eyeball only, knowing now how to estimate the graphical representation of terrain in CM and comparing it to the mathematical model it is based on. Personally, I don't see the need for a "hull down" command - and in fact think that it would subtract a very nice aspect from the game. Just my opinion. ------------------ "An hour has 60 minutes, each minute in action has a thousand dangers." - Karl-Heinz Gauch, CO 1st Panzerspähkompanie, 12th SS Panzerdivision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkerT Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Hi Moon (sounds like 'high noon') You wrote ------------------------------------------- I am consistently able to bring a tank into a hull down position using the good Mark I eyeball only, knowing now how to estimate the graphical representation of terrain in CM and comparing it to the mathematical model it is based on. ------------------------------------------- I think that it's great that a player has to practice a 'move' like hull-down before it is mastered. But you mention that you are using the games mathematical model. Since I (and probably other players to) don't know the mathematical model, could you please elaborate on your tecnique (without giving away your veteran advantage of cource ). That would be extremely kind and useful. Thank you. ------------------ If at first you don't succeed, try, try and try again. Then give up. There's no use being a damned fool about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Moon I dont get your point about you getting experience. The game models veteran crews and crack and green and whatever else. It should be that status that effects the ability of the unit getting a hull down status and not some subjective skill on the playters part. The effect is that a very inexperienced, uncoordinated or physically challenged player mishandles crack crews and green crews are put into hull down positions consistantly by people that spend too much time at ground level. The game uses abstractions. The move, hunt, fast move commands that can be strung together in strange sequences into regions that the unit cant even see is an abstraction. So is the Hunt till hull down. Its also new and people that percieve they have some "realistic" advantage over others are naturally going to be resistant. Others want just to have the units behave realistically. FFE: Telling a vehicle to move to a location out of its LOS is iffy sure. Its done all the time when we all abuse the move, hunt, fast move commands to set waypoints that the vehicle cant even see. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 It should be that status that effects the ability of the unit getting a hull down status and not some subjective skill on the playters part. Why not? After all, the game now allows the player to do a lot of things that a real unit would never do. For example, a player to setup a crack 88mm AT gun in the middle of an open field, or order an elite squad to charge against 10 MGs over 500 meters open ground. Remember that in the end CM is a game. In games a player's skill is that what matters. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TargetDrone Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Tommi: Iguess you mix things up there... you speak of your free decission to place any orders you like... fine.. that should be so.... but we speak here of a flaw that makes some orders (that would be easy to give in reality) very hard to execute.... sure you can place your 88 in the field, and charge a stronghold without cover over any distance you like.... so... why should i not have the right to tell my tank to drive up that ridge and target a point down the street while hiding as much of himself as is possible.... and i guess you misunderstood what lewis intended to say... well, the game depends on subjective skill... but on subjektive skill of making tactical decissions and foreseeing enemy moves AND NOT on subjective skill on what a great mouse accrobat you are... I guess the 3D sight should enhance the feeling and the imagination... but it should not be that you are required to be an expert at camera guidance so that you can execute such a move... i don't want a clickfest, i want a game that tests my tactical abilities... if for some reason i feel i need some heavy mouseclicking action i install the good old Total Annihilation and there i go.... Phew... that had to be said, sorry if it sounded somewhat harsh, but i wanted to straighten things out a bit.... ------------------ TargetDrone who has a heart for smilies and will defend their rights .... even if the cost is bloody.... (hell, i dont think i got many of the errors, but i tried... really, i did !! ) [This message has been edited by TargetDrone (edited 07-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrano Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Many, many, many hours of play now (approaching 50 QBs and have near finished off the tiny, small and medium scenarios) and I have never had a hard time going hull-down. As was suggested earlier, a heavy dose of M1TP back in the day may be responsible for my deep love of ridge lines and a cultivated sense of just when those SOBs can see me. In my view, it ain't broke, don't fix it, make with the TCP/IP patch and bring on the Soviets... Many regards, Cyrano ------------------ "Watching others make friends, as a dog makes friends. I mark the manner of these canine courtesies and say, 'Thank God, here comes another enemy'" -- Rostand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TargetDrone Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Cryano wrote... In my view, it ain't broke, don't fix it...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> sure.. nothing to fix.. but something to improve... ------------------ TargetDrone who has a heart for smilies and will defend their rights .... even if the cost is bloody.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelU Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Perhaps the effect of hunting till you're hull down could be achieved by setting up a sort of ambush marker with the tank and then having it hunt until it can see that ambush marker. That way you could set a marker on a likely enemy avenue of approach, target the marker and tell the tank to hunt forward. It would stop when it had targeted that marker, which is what a tank does now when it hunts forward and targets an enemy tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 HawlerT - sorry, my fault. I didn't express myself very clearly. I don't have the mathematical here either. What I meant was that after playing a lot I am able to use the visual representation and foresee areas where I have LOS to and where not without using the tool. You just begin to "understand" the terrain and its visualization in CM after a while I guess... BTW - one thing that is of GREAT assistance for hull-down maneuvers is one of these 3D glasses. I am using the Revelator sometimes - you see all the dips in the terrain MUCH MUCH better. ------------------ "An hour has 60 minutes, each minute in action has a thousand dangers." - Karl-Heinz Gauch, CO 1st Panzerspähkompanie, 12th SS Panzerdivision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 MichaelU: Good idea too. Its funny that the effect a post like this has. It brings out the reactionary, the visionary, the delusionary, etc. I would amend MichaelU's idea to go further and make it so the better the crew, the better the chance it will stop when hull down. The game should always reflect this basic principle of unit experience. Otherwise unrealistic advantages are viewed as great play. Being hull down does not always mean the classical "behind the ridge". you can be in a gully or behind a KO vehicle or there can be terrain between you and an area. I imagine that BTS is busy with the patch and hope they can comment on the issue again. In the meantime remeber "change is a good thing .. but I like a 5 spot" Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 I can't resist chiming in here, since I finally have loads of real-world experience with this topic (as opposed to my usual mindless ramblings!)... Moon: In reality, it's not that difficult for the driver to get the tank into a hull-down position; all he needs to do is hit the brake when the gunner (or TC) yells "Stop!". I may be a little slow, but I got pretty good a getting into a hull down without the verbal command (you do it enough times, and you get a feel for what is the right position). Also, Lewis was right about the gun elevation/depression problem. Sometimes, you can get a good hulldown, but the tank is tipped at such a weird angle that you can't get the gun on target. Usually, a good TC can tell ahead of time if a position will cause this problem. All-in-all, it seems that some of this could be added to CM to make the hull-down a little more realistic (Tac AI or added feature to the interface). Right now, it takes an inordinate amount of time to get the tank into a good position (much longer than it ever took me to, as either gunner, driver or TC). edit: spelling. MT [This message has been edited by Mannheim Tanker (edited 07-10-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted July 10, 2000 Share Posted July 10, 2000 Thanks Tanker I dont know if the game even models gun depression and I hope it will for CM2. A major advantage for german armor was just that. They could depress the guns and the russians couldnt. If you look at a stug you can imagine how easy getting a hull down was. The TC, gunner and driver were all close together and the height differences between them less than a turreted tank. If you have seen a stug with the coaxial MG (which is not just offset but actually a little higher?) then the vehicle could concievably be "gun down" and scalp the earth with the coax. Anyway hope to hear from BTS. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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