The new Russian Empire of the 21st century

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

Fionn,

I'm from Alaska, Native American population 33%. I know very well the sorry state of affairs in my own backyard, and I would love to clean it up first. Except my federal government is quite strong, robust and likes things the way they are.

In conclusion... None of this is an attack on anyone's country. I merely have a habit

of taking a strong stance when someone presents a one-sided view of something.

And one thing I particularly detest is when someone appears to be twisting facts or is

in complete ignorance of important facts.

Really Johnson,

The kid had bullets in his pockets. This paints him as a courier. If it had been me in

command of said interrogation centre he'd never have left it alive and, you know

what ? I'd be legally correct in shooting him.

Poor little boy got beaten up.. BAD Russians.

Well, your poor little boy was carting bullets around and will probably be shooting

and trying to kill Russians in a short while. Bloody propagandists turning him into

some sort of victim. Makes me sick.

Your right my post was very one sided, and because of that I should not have even said it. I honesty was not trying to twist any facts. Just trying to bring the side of this issue less heard to light, and doing a poor job of it. Just because he has bullets in his pocket and he is a Chechen does not prove he was up to no good. But it is damn stupid to be Chechen and carrying ammo around. Its asking for trouble by even glaring at Russian soldier. Its not good to be a Chechen and living in Russia these days. and if he was even remotely quilty of anything I can't hardly believe that Russian security would let him go unless to use him as bait to get the big fish. If he was not shooting at Russians before he might start now, unless he likes his family breathing.

[Cav Gunner]

What the heck are you admin waiting for? Close this thread. It was nothing but flame bait from the start.

Or perhaps you would prefer to wait until someone started up a thread about politics or religion.

[Formerly Babra]

Vote Tory! Screw the Pope! LOCK IT UP!

------------------

Sounds like 100% weapons-grade bolonium to me.

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cav Gunner:

What the heck are you admin waiting for? Close this thread. It was nothing but flame bait from the start.

Or perhaps you would prefer to wait until someone started up a thread about politics or religion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I'm not complaining or anything, but I think BTS is out of town on a research trip or are very busy, as I have not seen them post anything on this board for about a week now. I wouldn't hold my breath for lockups.

[Fionn]

" Your right my post was very one sided, and because of that I should not have even said it. I honesty was not trying to twist any facts. Just trying to bring the side of this issue less heard to light, and doing a poor job of it. "

Well, that is certainly more of an admission than I expected and, because of that, you've certainly won back some respect from me.

In future though, if trying to show the Russians being beastly don't use an example in which the guy being beaten up carried bullets around . Beating up a possible combatant is just part of the business.

OTOH I fully accept that lots of Chechens are being beaten up and tortured simply because they are of military age. Your error was in choosing a poor example.

So, I think this thread actually benefitted from not being locked down. Johnson made his point, others pointed out some flaws, he admitted them ( more than most would do under similar circumstances) and I think things are back on an even keel.

Man, people here are WAY too quick on the "lockup calls". DEBATE can often be vicious but it is best to let it continue, at least until it turns personal. There is nothing wrong with vicious impersonal debate. Only personal debate is incorrect.

[iggi]

What those little terrorists need is a little Serbian treatment. Kick them out of the country like a bunch of dogs.

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

Right on Fionn, I'm very glad this ended up on a pretty even keel and glad no one came over to my house to eat me for breakfast, personaly.

[Guest grunto]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra:

The current Russian war against Chechnya started when the Chechens invaded a neighboring republic (Uzbekistan, I think), and attempted to set up a united Islamic republic, which the Uzbeks didn't want. Sounds to me like the Chechens aren't too big on self determination themselves. The Russians aren't playing nice with the Chechens, it's true, but don't make this out to be a one-way thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's Dagistan. But that little "Islamic Invasion by the Chechnyans" had "agent provocateur" written all over it.

Andy

[Sergei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

This little idiot was carrying BULLETS around. Of course he was beaten. He should have been shot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go to an army training area, you might find some bullets. "Hey, those make nice soveniers" you think, and put them into your pocket. Just try thinking what is it like to be grown in Chechnya. It isn't too hard for a kid to find some cool war toys to play with - mines, HE grenades, dud shells and rifle ammunition (you're from Ireland, so who am I telling ). It's not synonymous to the kid being a guerilla fighter.

You're quite lightly telling that an underage boy should be raped and murdered, denying any kind of right for defence.

Ed: Oh, and for Mr. Johnson - you are saying that Russians deserve a revenge. I think revenge is not very good concept in the field of international politics. Usually punitive actions are aimed for something more than simple "you deserved it".

[This message has been edited by Sergei (edited 08-17-2000).]

[Fionn]

Sergei,

1. READ what I say.

2. Don't add anything in which I didn't say.

3. This kid was in MOSCOW not in some army training area or in a livefire warzone. ( read the initial post again to confirm this)

4. MANY Irish people find it immensely insulting to be told "You're from Ireland so you know what it's like to live in a warzone."

I live in the REPUBLIC OF IRELAND. YOU are thinking about "Northern Ireland" which is an ENTIRELY SEPARATE COUNTRY.

Contrary to popular belief we, in the South, don't go around dodging bullets and passing burnt out cars in the streets. Gees.

5. " You're quite lightly telling that an underage boy should be raped and murdered, denying any kind of right for defence."

I never mentioned rape. That is ENTIRELY your own prediliction Sergei. As for murder... Carrying ammunition while out of uniform is an offence punishable by death during time of war. A Chechen carrying ammunition around in Moscow these days would receive as little mercy from me as would a Russian carrying around ammunition behind Chechen lines if the tables were reversed.

It's nothing personal just the way things are done.

[The Commissar]

*sigh*

I'm not going to step into this mess you made, Mr. Johnson. I will however, attempt to put a stop to it:

Do you have any means of taking revenge on the evil, scheming Russian government? Are you the president of the United States, head of the UN, or even a measely Head of War Dept.? No? I didn't think so. Here you are though, preaching to us about just how bad Russians are, how badly they are treating the Chechens, and that something should be done about it.

Ok, grab an AK-47 (you can buy one for under $100 in countries sorrounding Russia), put some camo on, and head on over to Chechnia. There, you can join the rebel forces and get shot by some Russian soldier. You get your "revenge", the forum is back to normal with you gone, and everyone is happy.

I feel I must throw in a bit about why Russians are not yet WINNING the war as they should be doing considering their strenght. They are fighting guerillas. This is similar to what happent to the US fighting Vietnam. You CANNOT fight Guerillas with regular military tactics! Yet they do. "Let's send in a few tanks and have our boys ride them all in the open!"

Stupid. To fight guerillas, you must use similar tactics, IMHO. I am no military expert (although I hope to be one day), but I think the Russians would get much better results if they used scouting Guerilla parties to locate rebel concentrations and then bombard those concentrations to hell with tactical missiles, or at least to sorround them and destroy them with heavy weapon fire. As it is now, progress will be slow and bloody, which is unfprtunate considering just how much easier the Russians could handle this situation.

BTW: Would you care to give me the link for this Chechen rebel site? Im very interested to seeing what they have on there.

------------------

...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Guest Big Time Software]

Debates can be both stimulating and constructive as long as they don't get personal. The debates on this forum should ideally be all that AND on topic.

This thread is very off topic and is very close to getting personal.

Time to lock it up.

Deputy Moderator