von Lucke Posted May 24, 2000 Share Posted May 24, 2000 I'll know better than to ever do that again! But seriously volks: I should have known someone here would glom to the (obvious) answer fairly quickly: Yes, they are indeed panzertruppen of the panzer regiment of Fallshirmpanzer Korps Herman Goring --- the picture having been taken at the presentation ceremony for their Ritterkreuze --- somewhere in East Prussia early in December 1944 (dunno if Adolf was the one holding the camera or not, as the HG Div had been stationed in E. Prussia for some months by this point, trying to stem the Red tide). Maybe it's just me, but there's always been something a little strange about a bunch of Air Force personnel playing Army ("But Herr Oberst, I joined the Luftwaffe to fly Messerschmidts!" -- "Quit yr whining and get in that Panther!". And where did they stow their parachutes? Lends a whole other meaning to the term "bailing out" when yr panzer gets hit!). What struck me as odd, was the combination of Luftwaffe, panzer, and SS insignia that made up their uniforms! Sorry to all you aces of deductive reasoning for the delay (work is such a distraction!). Never ceases to amaze tho, how these threads mutate... PS: (Grog Note): The white piping on the collars and around the totenkopf tabs was peculiar to the HG Div tanker uniform throughout the war. [This message has been edited by von Lucke (edited 05-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertFox Posted May 24, 2000 Share Posted May 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What struck me as odd, was the combination of Luftwaffe, panzer, and SS insignia that made up their uniforms! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> von Lucke, It may be that you don´t know, but there are no SS-Insignia on that picture. Most propably you are referring to the Death Head, but this Death Head is strikingly different from the Death Head of the SS. The Death Head as a symbol of the "Panzertruppe" has it´s origin in WW1 and if you compare the Death Head of the "Panzertruppe" and the Death Head of the SS you will realize that they are different. Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted May 24, 2000 Author Share Posted May 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DesertFox: The Death Head as a symbol of the "Panzertruppe" has it´s origin in WW1 and if you compare the Death Head of the "Panzertruppe" and the Death Head of the SS you will realize that they are different. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, I do. The totenkopf stretches even farther back into German military history: It originated with the Black Brunswicker cavalry (around 1800) as a memorium to their dead prince and founder. (I believe the cav angle is what led to it's inclusion on the tanker uniform). But with the rise of the NSDAP and the SS, the totenkopf as a historical German image was pre-empted by the Nazis. I believe it started showing up on SS uniforms around 1933 --- the earliest I've seen it on panzertruppen is around 1938. And I don't know as I'd say the difference between the Heer totenkopf and the SS version is that striking. What, the SS version has a lower jaw, where the tanker version doesn't, I think? But I get yr point: Indicating SS was perhaps a bit of a faux paus, and I apologize to all the goodly Heer totenkopfs everywhere for the slight to their character! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertFox Posted May 24, 2000 Share Posted May 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Actually, I do. The totenkopf stretches even farther back into German military history: It originated with the Black Brunswicker cavalry (around 1800) as a memorium to their dead prince and founder. (I believe the cav angle is what led to it's inclusion on the tanker uniform). But with the rise of the NSDAP and the SS, the totenkopf as a historical German image was pre-empted by the Nazis. I believe it started showing up on SS uniforms around 1933 --- the earliest I've seen it on panzertruppen is around 1938. And I don't know as I'd say the difference between the Heer totenkopf and the SS version is that striking. What, the SS version has a lower jaw, where the tanker version doesn't, I think?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey cool, you know your stuff. Actually I live near Braunschweig and know quite a little bit about Herzog (duke) Friedrich Wilhelm and his "Schwarze Schar" (black crowd), who fought in the Napoleonic Liberation war and fell at Quatre Bras 1815. You are right they had the Deaths Head as a Regimental symbol, but at the same time the "Luetzower Freicorps" AFAIK had a Deaths Head too. I don´t know which of both was the origin of the later "Panzertruppen" symbol. Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted May 24, 2000 Share Posted May 24, 2000 Someone posted previously that the death's head insignia dates at least as far back as Freddy the Great's cavalry. I had always presumed it was the creation of those crazy exiled Braunschweigers, but no matter. It's old... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodwood Posted May 24, 2000 Share Posted May 24, 2000 Didn't the British 21st Lancers use death head as a unit insignia in the 1800s? Ron PS just a trivial side note because I'm getting close to member status Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted May 24, 2000 Share Posted May 24, 2000 Bah, everybody knows the Death's Head insignia dates back to the pirate Jolly Roger of the 1600s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 24, 2000 Share Posted May 24, 2000 Just a tiny Grog note myself... the death's head symbol used for the colar tabs of Panzertruppen was of the same design as that of the SS, though as has been described the reason behind the adoption most likely had nothing to do with the NSDAP but instead came from traditional military roots. The death's head symbol used by at least one Freikorps (Helge, I can't confirm your pick, but sounds good to me ) looked quite different from the SS/WH version. It was also the traditional symbol for Brunswick Infantry Regiment Nr. 92, later passed on to various units of the 17th Infantrerie-Regiment. 17th Brunswick Hussar Regiment also used it and passed it on to 2nd Abteilung 13th Kavallerie-Regiment. In fact, I have a P-08 holster from that time period with the very same one, in metal, fastened to the outside. It could be from any of these units during the early 1920s, most likely. Just so you Brits don't feel left out, the 21st Lancers of 6th Armored wore a skull and crossbones, similar to the one mentioned above. Other nationalities at other times did so as well. Steve (footnote, just found that Freikorps Brigade Reinhard, Berlin, used the skull and cross bones symbol. Probably others did too) [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 05-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 24, 2000 Share Posted May 24, 2000 Oh, And there was ONE more peice of detective work I thought of after posting guesses. Three Knights Cross holders, all in the same unit (used as a loose term) would almost certainly NOT happen in the 1941-42 timeframe. Still, I thought it would be odd for so much old stuff being worn by these guys in 1944. As I said, these bits of uniforms were retained all the way until the war ended, but it is still odd to see a picture with six men all wearing out of date clothing. But then I remembered... these were probably their original dress uniforms sitting in mothballs. Dress uniforms were rarer and rarer as the war went on due to the lack of quality cloth. So upon reflection it isn't that odd. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted May 24, 2000 Share Posted May 24, 2000 Sorry, the death's head in the German Military goes back to the time of Fredrick the Great. HR nr.5 (could be wrong about the number... don't have my books here) "Schwartz Husaren" aka "Toten Husaren." During Alte Fritz's reign, there was a second "death" regiment raise (9th I believe) known as "ganze tod" that used a full skeleton as its emblem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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