TelGerot Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 I'm a tad curious as to how in CM (and in reality, if it was the case) units can be identified by an opposing force as "Veteran" or "Green", on the battlefield. I mean, as far as experience goes, it makes sense to label a Sherman tank who has racked up 3 tank kills in a battle as at -least- regular, because it would be a lucky Greeny indeed to accomplish such a feat! But when I spot a squad running from some thick wood into a building, and I have 10 seconds to identify him from 120 meters away, how do I come up with something as detailed as "12 man -VETERAN- SMG squad"? I'm not complaining, I was just wondering how, realistically speaking, that could be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderer Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 Originally posted by TelGerot: But when I spot a squad running from some thick wood into a building, and I have 10 seconds to identify him from 120 meters away, how do I come up with something as detailed as "12 man -VETERAN- SMG squad"? ------------------------------------------- Some Soldiers are psychic. ------------------------------------------- "I love it, God help me I do love it so" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TelGerot Posted September 13, 2000 Author Share Posted September 13, 2000 Quote: ------------------------------------------- Some Soldiers are psychic. ------------------------------------------- Hmmm, well... if that's the case, I guess CM is heading toward the totally realistic realm of "Red Alert 2"! I'm sure that will make the historian fanatics on this board really happy! Come on guys, psychic controlled squids? Bomb-laden cows? That sounds like real life to -me-.* *Can I get a -serious- answer to my question now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maastrictian Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 As you've probably guessed, this has been discussed before. Do a search for the full story. My recolection of the arguement in favor of how it is currently done is that soldiers certainly can get an idea of how the enemy is reacting under fire. Troops that are slow to react, are not returning fire acurately etc etc can be labled as green. The converse is true for veteren troops. So while it is unrealistic for your troops to identify the make and model of the guns and the general aditude of the troops carrying them at 150m immidately, this does not generally happen. In my experience, even in close combat "Infantry Squad?"s are much more common than a full ID. A full ID will occur, but only after a minute or two of observation. What CM is trying to simulate is that your troops will figure out the caliber of the enemy facing them, and that is IMO, well modeled. --Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderer Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 I am insulted, I always try to give serious answers. That was the best I could come up with at such short notice. ------------------------------------------------ "I love it, God help me I do love it so" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 your question is a valid one, but indeed this has been discussed before. I remember that well because I share your view that the opponent shouldn't know the experience level, and the detailed type of enemy armor (Sherman M4A3(75)W+), or Cromwell Mk. VI whatever hell even people interested in this stuff have a hard time getting along with those british tank subvariants, how do you expect a german common footsoldier to do so back then, and at considerable rang, and during battle? problem is that the correct model gives you access to superdetailed info at one keystroke), and I am still not convinced by the other, common held opinion that the enemy should know. here is the original thread, it started out with the question how the enemy would know that a tank is immobilized (a FOW question related to the issue at hand) opponents knowledge of immobilized tanks ------------------ "Hehe nah u have some valid points mate but umm well be a bit nicer." (GAZ_NZ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valdor Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 My following comments are based on 24 rotations as an OPFOR Motorized Rifle Battalion (MRB) Commander at the Army's National Training Center. Would you know the exact training/experience* levels of enemy units with limited observation---of course not. However, with experience, you can very quickly get a generally good idea about the training/experience (and even morale) level of your enemy. For example, with enemy tanks I would look to see (among other things) if the TC positioned the tank in an effective hasty fighting position when it stopped and if the gunner immediately started scanning his sector. With Bradleys I would also look to see if they erected their TOW launcher after stopping (most don't!) For infantry I would look to see if they quickly exited the carrier after stopping and if they quickly took-up firing positions or just milled around (waiting for their officer or NCO to tell them what to do.) Maintaining dispersion and properly placing their SAWs/MGs and Dragon ATGMs were also good indicators (most poorly trained units treat SAWs & MGs as just big rifles!) Naturally, you can't see things like these in CM---but your virtual NCOs and officers could. (But, with some experience, I bet most of us have a good idea of the ability of a human player just a few turns after initial contact!) Ideally, in CM, the accuracy of this info would depend on your own units level---green units would have a large error factor in determining the enemy level while elite troops would have very little. Also, the accuracy would increase over time. *Training vs Experience: Actually these are two very different factors---you could be well trained with little actual combat experience (ie., US Army in Desert Storm) or very experienced with poor training (many Iraqi units had a lot of experience fighting Iran but were, by comparison, poorly trained.) ------------------ A66 1st MRB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Napoleon1944 Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 The easy answer is to go in and modify the .bmp file for the morale level markers. This would also make it harder to identify your own troops. Now I am anxious to try it out. Be back later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 Interesting post Valdor, thanks for sharing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Napoleon1944 Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 I just modified the morale markers and I am quite pleased. I just blacked them in over the Green and Conscript markers. So now I can spot Veterans or higher, lumping in the rest as 2nd rate troops (no marker). I like the added fog of war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 Great idea! And it doesn't distort the info bar graphics in any way either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rother Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 Valdor, I was in 1st MRB 93-94. BMP 133 I think thats the track. Maybe 132 it's been a long time. Were you tanks or BMPs? Rother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valdor Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 I was in 1st MRB in the late '80s. 106A, T72. (Thank God---instant gratification, pull the trigger and something dies [or you miss] immediately. No tracking the target for an eternity for an AT-3 shot or plinking away with that useless 73mm! ) ------------------ A66 1st MRB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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