Let the dead horses lie, is the AI too eager to purchase 75mm IG and not Pzschreck

[Guest tero]

In recent PBEM games we came across an anomaly in AI purchase routine. The AI invariably bought numerous 75mm IG's while it did not buy any Pzschrecks or on-board mortars.

While I was going through the data in to determine the number of horses in Normandy

http://home.swipnet.se/normandy/index.html

I came across these figures on the numbers of towed 75mm IG's present in Normandy and beyond.

85th Inf div

The T/O&E included 63 machine guns and twelve 8,1 cm mortars in each infantry battalion. The 13. Kp. of each infantry regiment was supposed to have two 15 cm s.IG. and six 7,5 cm le.IG., while the 14. Kp was authorized three 7,5 cm Pak, six machine guns and 36 Panzerschreck.

243rd Inf div

All infantry battalions had 44 light machine guns, except II./921 which had 46 and I./922 which had 45. The number of mortars were eight per battalion, except I./921 which had ten. All mortars had a calibre of 8 cm. Each infantry regiment had one infantry howitzer company with six Russian 7,62 cm infantry howitzers. Also each regiment had one company with three 7,5 cm AT guns. All infantry companies, except those of 920. Rgt were equipped with bicycles.

265th Inf div

All three infantry regiments had three support companies, the 13. with six 7,62 cm infantry guns, the 14. With three 7,5 cm AT guns and the 15. Which also was an AT company, but with immobile equipment.

266th Inf div

A mobile Kampfgruppe was formed and sent to Normandy. It consisted of the staff of Gren.Rgt. 897, I./Gren.Rgt. 897, II./Gren.Rgt. 897, an IG company and a platoon with 7,5 cm AT guns. Also an artillery battalion was formed, consisting of 3./Art.Rgt. 266, 8./Art.Rgt. 266 and 9./Art.Rgt. 266.

3./Art.Rgt. 266 four 15,5 cm howitzers

8./Art.Rgt. 266 four 15,5 cm howitzers

9./Art.Rgt. 266 three 12,2 cm howitzers

272nd Inf div

On 19 June it was reported that the division had 11 211 men and 1 514 HiWI.9 The weapons comprised 464 light machine guns, 102 heavy machine guns, 54 m.GrW, 32 s.GrW, nineteen 7,5 cm le.IG, nine 15 cm s.IG, twenty-two 7,5 cm Pak and nine 15 cm howitzers while the number of 10,5 cm howitzers was 33.

Mobility was provided by 177 motorcycles, 105 cars, 136 trucks, 71 towing vehicles and 4 302 horses.

277th Inf div

On 19 June the division it was reported that the division had 9 136 officers and men plus 1 513 HiWi. Its equipment included 468 light machine guns, 75 heavy machine guns, 58 8 cm mortars, nineteen 7,5 cm le.IG, six 15 cm s.IG, 37 10,5 cm le.FH, nine 15 cm s.FH, 22 7,5 cm Pak, 173 motorcycles, 111 cars, 230 trucks, 36 towing vehicles and 4 618 horses.

331st Inf div

Each infantry battalion had 52 machine guns and twelve mortars. The thirteenth company of each infantry regiment had two 15 cm sIG and four 7,5 cm leIG, except 13./Gren.Rgt. 557 which had no 15 cm sIG. The fourteenth company of each infantry regiment had three heavy anti-tank guns. The fourteenth company was in all cases partly motorized.

352nd Inf div

All infantry battalions had 60 light machine guns, three heavy machine guns and twelve 8 cm mortars. The Füs.Btl. had identical equipment. The 1. Company of the Füs.Btl. was bicycle mounted. The infantry regiments had one infantry gun company. In the 914. and 915. Regiments the IG company had two 15 cm and six 7,5 cm infantry howitzers, while the company was only equipped with two 15 cm and two 7,5 cm infantry howitzers in 916. Regiment. Each regiment had an AT company with three 7,5 cm Pak 40 AT guns.

353rd Inf div

The 14. Kp of all the infantry regiments had three 7,5 cm Pak 40 and 36 Panzerschreck. In G.R. 942 and 943 the 13. Kp had two 15 cm sIG and five 7,5 cm le.IG, while the 13./G.R. 941 had two 15 cm sIG and four 7,5 cm le.IG.

The Füs.Btl. had 63 machine guns and twelve mortars. Like the battalions of 943. Gren.Rgt. it was equipped with bicycles to enhance mobility.

708th Inf div

When the division began to move towards Normandy the US forces had already broken out. This meant that the division would frequently find its appraoch routes to be in enemy hands.

709th Inf div.

I./729: 46 MG, 4 mortars; 1. company bicycle mounted.

II./729: 46 MG, 4 mortars; all companies bicycle mounted.

III./729: 46 MG, 4 mortars; 1. company bicycle mounted.

649. Ost: 46 MG, 11 mortars

561. Ost: 58 MG, 9 mortars, some 4,5 cm AT Guns (number of guns unreadable in origanl document)

II./739: 48 MG; 1. Company bicycle mounted

III./739: 48 MG; 1. Company bicycle mounted

795. Ost: 44 MG, 15 mortars

I./919: 50 MG, 4 flamethrowers (bodenständig), 8 mortars (8,1 cm); 1. company bicycle mounted

II./919: 50 MG, 4 flamethrowers (bodenständig), 8 mortars (8,1 cm); 1. company bicycle mounted

III./919: 50 MG, 4 flamethrowers (bodenständig), 8 mortars (8,1 cm); all companies bicycle mounted

Each infantry regiment had a company with six 7,5 cm Pak and three 5 cm Pak. These were all motor drawn. In addition to this, the 919. Regiment had a company with six Russian 7,62 cm infantry howitzers (not motorized) and an extra AT company with light static AT guns.

The division had no field replacement battalion.

Elements of the division were engaged on D-Day, defending against allied airborne landings and also against the US 4th Infantry Division landing on Utah beach.

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Pz Lehr

Each panzer grenadier battalion had 108 machine guns, six 8 cm mortars and 39 Panzerschreck, nine 3,7 cm guns on halftracks

and eight 7,5 cm infantry guns on half tracks.

2nd SSPz

On 15 May the division reported the following equipment situation:

7,5 cm IG

On hand 18

Shortage 7

9th SSPz

Equipment of the panzer grenadier regiments on 1 June was:

7,5 cm le. IG

I./19 4

II./19 4

III./19 4

13./19 4

II./20 3

III./20(gp)2

12th SSPz

On 1 June the equipment of the infantry regiments was:

7,5 cm le.IG

I./25 4

II./25 4

III./25 4

I./26 4

II./26 4

III./26 (gp) 2

17th SSPG

Except for vehicles the division was rather well equipped. On 1 June it had the following equipment:

7,5 cm le.IG

On Hand 8

Shortage 21

Is the 75leIG too common now in CM in relation to the numbers it was present in the greater Normandy area ? Or more precisely, does the AI unhistorically prefer the 75 IG over the Pzschrecks and other support weapons, including mortars ?

[This message has been edited by tero (edited 12-28-2000).]

[Jarmo]

I'm willing to bet the AI doesn't factor in rarity at all while making purchases.

[Guest tero]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

I'm willing to bet the AI doesn't factor in rarity at all while making purchases.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am aware the rarity is not factored in in the unit cost, only effectiveness. The actual hit rate of the leIG vs Pzschreck just seems a bit steep in AI purchases, given the fact the Pzschreck is both more common and more effective.

Not that I am suspecting leanings in any directions or anything.

But when the AI does not buy any tanks, as happened in one game where there were tons of HT's and 75IG's for the AI Germans but no on-board mortars or Pzschrecks. (The AI deployed the IG's to the edge of the map to boot so the AI stood absolutely no chance.) I would suspect the Pzschreck would be more common than the 75IG in such a force. Historically.

BTW: this is v1.05 I am talking about.

[Jarmo]

I've also been noticing the AI's tendency to place the guns way back. So I only

meet them after having routed the enemy and being mopping up.

Yup, might be there are sometimes too few schrecks. Or rather, too few AT defenses of any kind.

I wonder if the AI's purchases are in any way influenced by the opposition's force composition.

Does the AI buy plenty of AT if she's facing armor force.

But I like to buy 75mm IG's and not schrecks myself. Seems like a better deal to me.

Although then I have to get something for AT as well.

[Guest MantaRay]

Wow, I was just thinking this earlier in a game between the Brits and Germans (OPperation) There were 6 guns and they were all in the back. I wondered if the AI thought the Panthers and the 2 KT's were too much danger for the AT guns to handle. But if you guys noticed this also, must not be my imagination.

All were grouped together though, and in trees at the edge of the map, and took out quite a few of my HT's before I even spotted them (I wasn't paying real close attention and my sound was off.) My HT's were doing a sweep of the tree line to get the crews of the Sherman and Stuarts I had destroyed earlier.

My KT eventually got 3 of them, but the turns ran out before I butched the rest.

Ray

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[Guest tero]

>I've also been noticing the AI's tendency to place the guns way back. So I only meet them after having routed the enemy and being mopping up.

Concur. Often the guns are placed "unintelligently" so that they are in a perfect ambush location but location itself is tactically downright stupid (ie. too far back to be of any real help when the feces hits the ventilation system).

But perhaps this is just us Finns bitching about "wrong" AT tactics with inadequate/improper weapons.

>Yup, might be there are sometimes too few schrecks. Or rather, too few AT defenses of any kind.

Make that "static AT defences" (for example towed AT guns) and I concur.

>I wonder if the AI's purchases are in any way influenced by the opposition's force composition.

If anything the more tanks you buy manually the more likely (it seems)it is you wind up against an AI selected force with 1) no tanks 2) no viable AT assets 3) both of the above.

>Does the AI buy plenty of AT if she's facing armor force.

She ? I quess it is that temperamental. :-D

Come to think of it I can not recall coming against an AI selected force that would have had towed AT guns or Pzschrecks in it. Plenty of AT vehicles though. But that is just a feeling.

>But I like to buy 75mm IG's and not schrecks myself. Seems like a better deal to me.

Although then I have to get something for AT as well.

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tero:

..ie. too far back to be of any real help when the feces hits the ventilation system).

But perhaps this is just us Finns bitching about "wrong" AT tactics with inadequate/improper weapons.

...

ome to think of it I can not recall coming against an AI selected force that would have had towed AT guns or Pzschrecks in it. Plenty of AT vehicles though. But that is just a feeling.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that I think of it, I have had a nasty surprise once or twice, when I'm just about to rout the

AI's forces. I Have sent an AFW or two to circle back and motittaa her forces.

The damn guns hidden on the far corner then open up on my flanks, it won't change the

outcome but the victory has a sour aftertaste.

BTW, I've seen the AI pick AT guns.

But it might be those came as a part of a larger formation.

I don't remember ever meeting a surprise 88.

[Banshee]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

I've also been noticing the AI's tendency to place the guns way back. So I only

meet them after having routed the enemy and being mopping up.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the AI doesnt take the terrain into account very well, but if the terrain happens to have the back edge of the map raised up where guns can be placed then you have a hard time dislodging them with anything but arty. Since they have a huge screening force in front of them. The idea of the placement of the guns is good, just the execution by the AI isnt always very good (it would be a damn tough algorithm to write).

An anecdote about AI placement , one time I was attacking the germans and was having a very tough time of it (the terrain happened to be such that no direct fire could be placed on the defending units, so it was all at the point of the bayonet). When finally clearing the opposition (so I thought) and being nearly out of resources I ran into an 88mm gun sitting next to an MG bunker, I simply didnt have the resources left to take the position, my infantry was pinned by the MG bunker and the armor had no chance against the AI. Sure wished I had saved some of that arty!

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[Major Tom]

Actually, I think that the AI models AT guns pretty well. In another post, Steve was responding to someone about euqestions regarding AT guns being too vunlerable to everything in the world. Steve mentioned thaty it might be due to incorrect placement. Many people assume that AT guns are good for close range shooting, while in reality, they are best used for longer ranged killing. The closer to the frontlines they are the closer they are to enemy infantry. The AI positions its guns near the back of the board, as, this is the farthest they can go. Maybe the map was just too small for the AI to use AT guns effectively near the front lines.

Also, notice that just about every mention states that a bunch of AFV's were lost to these groups of AT guns. Sure, they might not have stopped the slaughter at the frontline, but, they performed pretty good as a rearguard.

[Guest tero]

>Now that I think of it, I have had a nasty surprise once or twice, when I'm just about to rout the AI's forces. I Have sent an AFW or two to circle back and motittaa her forces.

You of all people should know better than to send AFV's diddy bobbing around without proper infantry escort (the kind that spots, not mounted units).

BTW: I think the best equivalent term is outflank in English. :-D

>The damn guns hidden on the far corner then open up on my flanks, it won't change the

outcome but the victory has a sour aftertaste.

Does that constitute gamey tactics by the AI ?

>BTW, I've seen the AI pick AT guns.

But it might be those came as a part of a larger formation.

I don't remember ever meeting a surprise 88.

The German Heer/SS formations that have cannons in the OB are the larger Security formations in the regular infantry and the armoured PzG/PzG formations (not the motorized formations).

Surprise surprise: none of the formations apparently have integral Pzschrecks, only MG42's. Only Fallshirmjägers and Volksturm have them as a part of the regular platoon.

I think we can safely say that if you select below 2000pts and non-Fallschirmjäeger/Volksturm forces you more than likely get the IG rather than the Pak and almost certainly no Pzschrecks against you. If the AI does the selection and it picks the bigger formations.

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

I'm willing to bet the AI doesn't factor in rarity at all while making purchases.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless this has changed in the beta patches, I don't think this is entirely true, at least for armor. I did some tests with the 1.05 version. I ran about 30 setups with combined arms letting the AI pick and ended up with a total of about 15 or so Panther tanks, but not a single Tiger, even though the Tiger is cheaper. But AI purchase for armor in combined arms has been tweaked in 1.1 so I'm not sure how it works now.

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