Visual History of Christie Tank and Cousins

[Guest kking199]

A thread within a discussion came up a while back about the influence of the American Christie Tank. In particular the "suspension" is what was adopted. I scanned these illustrations from the book Tank - An Illustrated History of Fighting Vehicles

The "T3" Christie Tank

Britains Crusader II (A.15 Cruiser Mark VI)

Russian T34/76

I think each of these tanks has a very similar profile, especially the T34, did the Christie influence more than just the suspension?? Keep in mind that the Christie T3 was first built in 1931, and the other two in '40 and '41.

Yes I know the Arse is cut-off, but the picture was bigger than the scanner.

[This message has been edited by kking199 (edited 11-18-2000).]

[Guest Pillar]

Good observation!!!

[Wayne]

Just think. If America had taken the Christie design and used it as seed for future American tank designs we might have had a tank like the T-34 in Europe instead of the Sherman.

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Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wayne:

Just think. If America had taken the Christie design and used it as seed for future American tank designs we might have had a tank like the T-34 in Europe instead of the Sherman.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, we'd probably have ended up with the T-3. .

In any event, what made the T-34 so daunting to the Germans was the armor and 76mm gun; this is not part of the Christie design, but was developed as a result of soviet experiences in Spain, and, to a lesser extent, in Finland.

The T-34 had, I believe, better flotation than the Sherman, at least on soft terrain, but the Sherman was much more reliable, had a better gun, and had a similar amount of armor.

The big thing about the T-34 is that it was fielded in 1941, when the main German AT gun was 37mm. If the Sovs had been armed with Shermans, the Germans would have been just as taken aback.

Of course the Sherman was likewise designed to deal with enemy tanks having 37mm AT guns, but by 1944, this was not adequate in a main battle tank.

[Guest machineman]

I've got a copy of 'Janes Tanks of WWII' which goes through the Soviet BT series of tanks from which the T-34 was derived. The pictures show the the BT-5 and BT-7, which look almost identical to the original Christie tank. Over 7000 BT series tanks were built.

It says here that as the series developed from BT-1 all the way to BT-8 the armour got more sloped, they started welding instead of riveting, and finally went to a diesel engine instead of a gas. You can kind of see some T-34 features visible in the BT-7 picture.

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wayne:

Just think. If America had taken the Christie design and used it as seed for future American tank designs we might have had a tank like the T-34 in Europe instead of the Sherman.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, compare this "Christie" design to the Pershing. They look about the same, don't they. The Sherman came from a different design obviously.

[PzKpfw 1]

Concerning Christie and the Soviets it realy is an interesting story.

In 1930 I.A. Khalepski the head of the UMM (Directorate for Mechanization and Mororization) was tasked with going to Britian,France, Germany, & the US to look into buying tank's, tractors, & armored cars.

Khalepski's first meeting was Was Walter Christie, who was promoting his M1931 tank. Khalepski, was not initialy interested in Christiie's design, as it did not meet the armament standards defined by the RKKA. never the less Khalepski & Christie, made a verbal contract, their never was any signed contract. Christie then agreed to deliver 2 M1931's & all documentation along with the outline for his planned upgrades for the M1931, for $160,000 with the transaction being handeled by AMTORG (a US - USSR trade organization), the transaction was made with full knowledge of the US government.

Christie shipped the 2 M1931 tanks on Dec 24 1930. But when the M 1931's arrived in Russia they were not complete and were missing their turrets and armament & more importantly their documentation. Christie was then docked 25,000 for goods not recieved. What had occured was the US Army had heard of the deal and applied political pressure on Christie, in the end the pressure won out and Christie suplied the US Army with 7 M1931 tanks and it's not clear if they also stopped him from provideing the plans to the Russians to this date.

The plans were later obtained thru Christie's staff by V.D. Svirdov. with the 2 completed M1931's being tested and officialy accepted into Soviet service in Feb 1931 as the BT-2 tank and production began at the 'Komintern' KhPz locomotive plant, which was geared up initialy to produce the the T-24 tank.

Christie then again aproached the Soviet's promoting his M1932 'Flying Tank' which was sold to the USSR for $20,000 and designated the BT-32 by the Soviet's.

Regards, John Waters

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"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945.

[Splinty]

You really learn the most interesting stuff on this board. Thanks for starting such a good topic Kevin.

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Nicht Schiessen!!

[Guest machineman]

Also mentioned:

"The BT-7 was a development of the BT-5, incorporating lessons learned in the Khalin Gol battles against the Japanese. It retained the same automotive features but had an all-welded hull with sloping front plates to enhance protection, a welded turret with sloping slides, and new track."

AFAIK the Khalin Gol battles were big 'secret' pre WWII battles where a certain general named Zhukov with his BT-5's kicked major Japanese butt, giving them enough of a lesson they never attacked the Soviets from the east when Barbarossa attacked from the west, letting the Russians transfer Siberian troops west in the nick of time.

So I guess you could say the T-34 saving the Soviet Union was just a continuation of the work of it's 'grandfather'.

[Guest kking199]

Thanks John for the great info. It is fascinating, I find it quite ironic that an American designer had such a profound influence on Russian tank design. Maybe even more ironic is the fact that U.S. Army did not adopt any of Christie's idea's until after they saw them implented by other Countries.

So if I use implied and/or perverse logic here I can come to the conclusion that the USA did in fact single handedly defeat Germany in WWII!! Since the T-34 is a direct descendant of the American Christie tank! LOL, J/K.

BTW Joe, thanks. But if you think I'm gonna be nice in our PBEM...

"You got another thing coming!" (Judas Priest Version)

[This message has been edited by kking199 (edited 11-19-2000).]

[Wayne]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus:

OK, compare this "Christie" design to the Pershing. They look about the same, don't they. The Sherman came from a different design obviously.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but we could have been further along in tank design had we followed the Christie model and perhaps had something like the Pershing in 42 or 43. Think how this would have changed the fighting conditions in France in 1944. Just one more might have beens.

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Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.

[PzKpfw 1]

I'd point out that though Christie M1931 design influenced the BT series as it was its base model for the BT-2 BT-5 etc, the Soviet's did modrenize the design Ie, Christie's original wheel track suspension was replaced by an better torsion bar suspension.

What can be sai IMHO is Christie's design did have an profolic effect ojn tank design & credit must also be given to the Soviet engineers who consitantly improved on Christie's design as well.

Regards, John Waters

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"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945.

[Snake Eyes]

FYI: Here is a photo of the T-34 lineage.

(l-r) BT-7, A-20, T-34 M40, T-34 M41

As a side note, Guderian paid an official visit to the Soviet Union prior to hostilities and came back with an estimate that the Soviets had 7000-8000 tanks. His claim was discredited as being rediculously high. In fact, the Soviets had 28,000 tanks.

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It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

[This message has been edited by Snake Eyes (edited 11-20-2000).]